EP29: The Masculine Mirror: What It Takes to Be a Man in a Modern Relationship (feat. Brennan Hopkins)

In this raw and reflective episode, we sit down with Brennan Hopkins—creative, coach, and former husband—as he unpacks the quiet compromises, unspoken resentments, and misplaced identity that slowly eroded his marriage. What began as a pursuit of being the “steady rock” turned into a cautionary tale of self-abandonment masked as maturity.

Together, we explore the evolving definition of modern masculinity, the cost of shrinking to avoid conflict, and the courageous act of reclaiming self-respect. This conversation is an unfiltered look at the inner life of a man confronting his own complicity and finally stepping into sovereignty.

Whether you’re in a relationship or rebuilding after one, Brennan’s story offers a mirror - and a map.

🔑 Key Takeaways
1.Being the “nice guy” isn’t noble—it’s often avoidance in disguise.
True leadership in a relationship requires clear boundaries, not passive service.
2.Modern masculinity demands emotional presence, not just provision.
You can’t build a thriving partnership by dodging the hard conversations.
3.Self-respect isn’t selfish.
When you suppress your needs for the sake of keeping the peace, you create a false harmony that eventually breaks.

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For more of Brennan’s insights, creative work, and powerful storytelling, connect with him on Instagram

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Transcript

Joshua Hamilton: Okay, welcome back to another Uncommon Man podcast. Extremely excited today to have Brennan with us. If you guys are in a relationship that you want to keep or are you in a relationship where there are challenges, stories or circumstances that are going on that you wish to eliminate, get rid of or make better? I've brought Brennan on here to share his journey cuz he's lived it. He's got experience with it. He knows the dos and the don'ts. and we're going to pull out the story and the things that are going to allow you to navigate a more positive course of action, whether that just be for yourself, whether that be for the outcome of your relationship, or whether that just to be have a much better life.
 
 

00:22:36

 
Joshua Hamilton: So, Brennan, mate, thank you so much. And I just want to before we even start, mate, this sort of stuff is it's hard. It's hard to see oursel in the mirror. It's hard to kind of reflect on where we may have dropped the ball as you mentioned earlier, but I really want to honor that, mate. And thanks for reaching out to give this gift to all our listeners as well. That's awesome. Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm um honored and grateful to be here and to be able to share just a little bit of really my own journey. Not really wisdom. I don't know. Not that I who what do I even know? But, you know, we have I have seen some things and I am I'm still here. I'm still kicking and um I'm hoping that maybe some of my experiences
Joshua Hamilton: Cool.
Brennan Hopkins: can provide some context or some encouragement or insight, you know, to some other people maybe that find themselves in a similar similar or adjacent experience.
 
 

00:23:31

 
Joshua Hamilton: Can you share a little bit uh about yourself for for us who are listening because you sound a bit weird for an Australian.
Brennan Hopkins: Oh yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: What's
Brennan Hopkins: Well,
Joshua Hamilton: what's the journey? What's the journey that's got you here? Brennan's currently
Brennan Hopkins: there
Joshua Hamilton: in
Brennan Hopkins: and
Joshua Hamilton: in
Brennan Hopkins: back
Joshua Hamilton: Perth.
Brennan Hopkins: again.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm originally from like Virginia, North Carolina region in um America, moved to Perth with my exh about yeah like almost eight years ago now. So, which we'll get into all those fascinating facets I reckon over the time. So,
Joshua Hamilton: Cool.
Brennan Hopkins: but yeah, I was here for a long time with an American and then have lived here without, you know, by myself. So, my accent is very confused.
Joshua Hamilton: And so let's just say X um
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: she was the one that pulled you from America Dolls.
Brennan Hopkins: No, it was both. I I was actually more of the traveler than she was.
 
 

00:24:30

 
Brennan Hopkins: But I uh both of us I would say we met young, got married young and had dreams of traveling or doing something cool. So, you know, this is nine years ago, whatever. I did a Google search of how to make money online and uh as as a lot of people do, found a little opportunity, made my first few hundred dollars and we said, "Yeah, let's sell everything and
Joshua Hamilton: Cool.
Brennan Hopkins: travel the world." So that's what we did. And um got a house sit here in Perth, which is how we ended up in Australia. And um from there it just after our travels there was I mean the quality of life's really amazing the beach and uh there were some good opportunities uh work-wise in my ex's field as well. So we just decided to um we decided to come back really.
Joshua Hamilton: How did how
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: did you guys connect? Like what was the what was the spark that set you two off? And how old
Brennan Hopkins: Um
 
 

00:25:29

 
Joshua Hamilton: were you when you met?
Brennan Hopkins: um when we met 21
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: at uni. Well, 20 actually. And then we got together a few months later after I was 21. So, Oh, no. We were both at uni and we um I don't know if you guys have ever seen the in the movies before like the the dorm ras where the people with the clipboards telling everyone what to do or whatever. So, um yeah, we were both in that kind of leadership role. I was in a in a I think I was that was my I wasn't an RA yet, but I was in Jason and she was or whatever. So, we were there early for to campus before uni kicked off to do some trainings and stuff
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: and yeah um met up there. I frankly there was just like something about her that made her stand out like even amongst a crowd of her friends and I remember I remember immediately being like oh I should not be friends with her because I
 
 

00:26:29

 
Joshua Hamilton: Heat.
Brennan Hopkins: was dating someone at the time and was kind of like yeah nah I'm just going to let that be because there seemed to be some sort of intense interest on my side at least initially. Um, so when things didn't work out with my the girl I was seeing at the time, you know, I slowly started trying to cultivate something with this other girl, with my ex, which um, in and of itself, there was a lot of lessons now that I I recognize, but at the time just young, just trying to do I, you know, I was I come from a like a religious Christian background um, which I and was trying very hard to embody a lot of those principles that I felt mattered about pursuit and commitment and standards for like character of people and things like that. So I was I I probably overlooked some things that I should have been more aware of because I thought I was doing the right thing by pushing
Joshua Hamilton: Can you
Brennan Hopkins: through.
Joshua Hamilton: can you can you name them?
 
 

00:27:37

 
Joshua Hamilton: What were they
Brennan Hopkins: Oh yeah. Well, like for instance, just straight up, I mean, she tried to break end our relationship during emotional moments quite a few times and I just I didn't force her to stay. I just didn't I just held my ground like I don't know. I just held space for her and then it would always like kind of settle down and then we would be she would want to be with me. I was just like a rock. I I felt I perceived myself as just being like a steady rock like in a in a in a a turmoil of emotions, you know, and now retroactively it's like, okay, no, no, I I probably it was fine for like a few of those, but I should have I just should have started putting my foot down on some of those behaviors,
Joshua Hamilton: So, all right.
Brennan Hopkins: you know?
Joshua Hamilton: This is good looking back. So, at the time you were like, "Okay, cool. I feel like I'm the rock here. She's this emotional roller coaster.
 
 

00:28:34

 
Joshua Hamilton: I'm going to stay steady. She'll feel safe. It's good." But looking
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: back now, was it more of a I guess we call it the Mr. nice guy of
Brennan Hopkins: Oh,
Joshua Hamilton: like
Brennan Hopkins: 100%. Oh,
Joshua Hamilton: like
Brennan Hopkins: I was
Joshua Hamilton: I'll just
Brennan Hopkins: definitively.
Joshua Hamilton: accept this behavior so she doesn't leave me and then she'll
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: like me because I said yes.
Brennan Hopkins: Oh, the thing is is that it's not I I wasn't Man, I wish I was that desperate, but it's it wasn't like it's
Joshua Hamilton: Rock
Brennan Hopkins: almost arrogance, honestly, when I look back to where it's like I actually thought I was being the superior, not towards her, but superior man, like human
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: by by not Yeah. by being in unimpacted, unfazed, by being it's like, no, I'm so mature that I can just weather or handle any of these little spats or whatever that come up and I don't need to get aggressive. I don't need to get vicious or or hold it against them or whatever like that, which those are still true concepts.
 
 

00:29:41

 
Brennan Hopkins: I just embodied them very poorly.
Joshua Hamilton: All
Brennan Hopkins: um which was a pattern that would stick with me honestly and is one of the bigger I would say yeah like I it's not it's like just it's not really a regret it's just an area that I see that I could have done things differently not that the outcome would have changed but I could have showed up better in certain areas if that makes sense.
Joshua Hamilton: right. What would Okay, we're here rather. I was thinking
Brennan Hopkins: Well,
Joshua Hamilton: about
Brennan Hopkins: we're going all over the place.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: So, we're we're welcome to
Joshua Hamilton: So, it's fine. We'll we'll we'll go here because there's a lesson for it right there and it's probably obviously going to play all the way through. So, what would you have changed? Like you embodied it, but you see kind of in a different way. Like I guess what would that look like now with more maturity?
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Well, I would have recognized that having self-respect would have meant that there is a give and take between the and that it was not it wasn't fair to me for her to get to go to such extremes in a way that um yeah that like threaten my own security and well-being.
 
 

00:31:02

 
Brennan Hopkins: Like that's literally what we're talking about. It's like, you know, and and so that was far beyond it's I understand like people have feelings and there they're kind of like isolated cases, but the extremism and the the regularness of that extremism is that's not healthy. And that was, you know, I could have I I should have been the one straight. It's like that shouldn't have ever happened, but I should have been the one to be like, "Hey, this isn't fair to me that you constantly it go to this level and then I'm now worried and anxious or stressed about the security or the health of our relationship. Especially when I'm look, I'm here right now. Like, I'm not going anywhere. I haven't.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: It's not like I was out with the boys
Joshua Hamilton: No evidence.
Brennan Hopkins: until 3:00 a.m. It's like, yeah, it just is not. And I understand that you have experiences that make it hard for you, but to to to potentially like feel secure here, but you're causing me a lot of anxiety and stress and like that's and it's you are not allowed to have feelings and not and I'm not.
 
 

00:32:20

 
Brennan Hopkins: You know, it's either we both have feelings or we both don't have them.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Fair. Oh, yeah. So, after that, how long did that kind of did that continue throughout the relationship or was that just
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah,
Joshua Hamilton: early
Brennan Hopkins: it
Joshua Hamilton: doors?
Brennan Hopkins: it genuinely did. Um, it was pretty I would say so she tried to like and this is the thing though like and I'm not going to you know people myself but like especially women you know tend to have more feelings and tend to feel them biggerly than than we do. So,
Joshua Hamilton: Yep.
Brennan Hopkins: you know, I don't know. I didn't know the difference between like freaking out because the trash can like I I I had very little frame of reference to know like what was an what was this normal kind of concern and what's crazy because to me it feels crazy to freak out about both things like oh the bin is you know overflowing and also the relationship I feel unsafe.
 
 

00:33:21

 
Brennan Hopkins: I was like they're all every if everything I I just didn't know like what level you know if you kind of like are always at the same level in their response then it makes it really difficult to judge where at least for me with the lack of experience that I had
Joshua Hamilton: Well, what's really
Brennan Hopkins: what
Joshua Hamilton: important? It's like if everything's
Brennan Hopkins: yes
Joshua Hamilton: a
Brennan Hopkins: that's
Joshua Hamilton: 10,
Brennan Hopkins: exa
Joshua Hamilton: I'm
Brennan Hopkins: that's
Joshua Hamilton: like, what?
Brennan Hopkins: exactly
Joshua Hamilton: Where
Brennan Hopkins: right
Joshua Hamilton: do I focus?
Brennan Hopkins: yeah
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: that's exactly right yeah you know and try and and and be attentive to that but I yeah no we the thing is is we I I just and and look this is why I'm this is one of the biggest reasons that why I wanted to share this like my experience and I it's it's probably pretty strange and unique but this was the second woman that I had ever dated in my entire life and I married her and I I just had no and my whole context was trying to be a good man and husband but that was defined based off of the woman's perception of me.
 
 

00:34:26

 
Joshua Hamilton: and and any religious beliefs or just the woman's perception?
Brennan Hopkins: Oh yeah, it would definitely be. Yeah. Yeah. The religious beliefs a ton. Yeah, of course. But like in that case though, it would be very I you know I I would say that from a a biblical perspective there's a high expectation for how the men are supposed to behave in a relationship. I
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: mean, it genuinely says in the Bible like men are supposed to love their lives like Jesus loved the church. So, it's like a pretty high kind of bar and there was a level to where I was trying to be the anti- case which you mentioned, you know, nice guy syndrome. I 100% recommend that book to, you know, most people no more Mr. Nice Guy. But it was this also trying to be this antithesis, you know, an example of the opposite of what it's like um in in a relationship. So you have I didn't know that those were I knew it was hard, but I didn't know that th that was actually warning signs that needed to be addressed.
 
 

00:35:38

 
Brennan Hopkins: If that makes sense. I I didn't know the check engine is the check engine light on because there's like dust in the filter or because the engine's about to explode. I don't know. I just had the one thing. But I I had no way of gauging.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: And because there was a a sense that there, you know, there was a prone to 10 10 out of 10 emotions that made me very resistant to bring up anything that could potentially set off that kind of thing, which again is another indicator. of how there is not there's like a lack of health in in that context. But, you know, I we're just probably in the things, but like I just abdicated a lot of responsibility by avoiding some of these these discussions for fear of setting her off when they could have been super impactful. And at the very least, you know, worst case scenario, cause the the dissolution, the breakdown of the relationship faster, which that's fine. Like, that's not I'm not here to try and save anyone's relationship.
 
 

00:36:50

 
Brennan Hopkins: I'm here to try and help people be healthier.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: And
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Like
Brennan Hopkins: hopefully
Joshua Hamilton: you said if Yeah. Go ahead.
Brennan Hopkins: yeah hopefully that leads to well I mean the thing is that should lead to healthy relationships but you can't be healthy for both people like that's a one that's an individual person's decision and then the other person has to also decide that for themselves which is what we where we eventually ended up at you know but at the time so
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah,
Brennan Hopkins: that's
Joshua Hamilton: I
Brennan Hopkins: a
Joshua Hamilton: can
Brennan Hopkins: it's
Joshua Hamilton: see
Brennan Hopkins: all
Joshua Hamilton: here
Brennan Hopkins: it all interconnects it all it's all connected but it was Looking back to hindsight 2020, I was like, man, I just Yeah, I was afraid of being perceived as an a****** or like of upsetting her or yeah, being accused of being insensitive. And frankly, I was systematically um there was unfortunately like a lot of um gaslighting that happened because of my ex's experiences.
 
 

00:37:51

 
Brennan Hopkins: You know, she was an assault victim. There were some other things which I was very empathetic to but that brought in a level of unnecessary superiority in her perception and perspective of life because she became she became the the measuring stick for what was good or not based off of her unique life experience which meant that my perception perspectives were very regularly dismissed with like from a shameful perspective, not even from like a very not not in just like a healthy dialogue. It's just well yeah
Joshua Hamilton: And then in terms of bringing up the fact that, you know, I've just been shamed or my perspective matters. You're scared that you're going to set her off from a zero to a 10. Is it
Brennan Hopkins: 100%. Yeah. Well, there was no, you know, it we had the illusion of a of a very communicative relationship, but the reality was she got to say whatever she wanted and I couldn't say that much at all.
Joshua Hamilton: Right. Okay. The the idea the thing that comes to me is they're walking on eggshells.
 
 

00:39:13

 
Joshua Hamilton: If
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: it
Brennan Hopkins: 100%.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: If I say that it's going to explode. even though Okay. So, I'll just I'll just go do it. So, you end up doing everything, not saying anything, and then there's no rules or standards for her, just rules and standards for
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: you. Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Well, I mean, and that's that's what that's where the growing frustration came for me because it's like I feel like I'm a totally different person as from your influence and I feel like you have been stubbornly unchanged or unimpacted by me at all. So why is the expectation I I mean frankly the thing was is like why am I the only one that has to grow and mature because that's how it felt from the perspective that I was the one constantly in a deficit which was you know I I interesting given the ways that I showed up in the relationship you know not only did I like was I the primary provider I let her take a lot of time off to go and study I helped fund that.
 
 

00:40:14

 
Brennan Hopkins: I paid for a lot of it. I did the majority of the cooking. I did the majority of the cleaning. I did It's like, no, I am actually showing up in a very high level. So, there was this weird dissonance between why does everyone else think that I mean, frankly, it's like why do all of these other wives or girlfriends think that I'm an amazing husband and my own wife doesn't think that I am? Like what's going on here?
Joshua Hamilton: It's really interesting and kind of tough as well because I know it's a bloody it's a s*** storm but like you mentioned that why am I the only one who has to grow when the hard thing is is that when we're in this situation we shrink because we don't want to grow in terms of putting rules in place. We don't want to grow in terms of saying this is our standard that I need to be treated in this way. We shrink away from those
Brennan Hopkins: That's
Joshua Hamilton: because
Brennan Hopkins: exactly
 
 

00:41:08

 
Joshua Hamilton: we know
Brennan Hopkins: right.
Joshua Hamilton: it's going
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah,
Joshua Hamilton: to end up as a 10.
Brennan Hopkins: that's exactly
Joshua Hamilton: And then we
Brennan Hopkins: right.
Joshua Hamilton: have
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: to go down this path of like well I'm not growing here. I I'll need to make up for it. Like the cooking, the cleaning, the organizing, the da da da And da it's da. like,
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: I'm a really good husband, but actually the the masculine, the the path of direction, everything was shying away from because, well, f***, if I say something, if I put direction and I put boundaries in, this s***'s going to attend.
Brennan Hopkins: I and that's that's what the the like the onetwo punch of this entire thing is for me and what I like I I there are things that I could have done way worse. So I'm still proud and grateful for the way that I managed a lot of the scenario. I still failed to show up in a lot of ways like I should have as a as a as a man.
 
 

00:42:01

 
Brennan Hopkins: And I've got to wrestle with the fact that I cared more about her perception of me than doing the right thing
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: regularly. And that was me compromising my values. And and again, I relationships are a two-person thing. So you can't I I can't play the whatif game really because I have absolutely no clue. And frankly, what led to the We'll get to this in a second, so I'll pause on that. But like, but I can look back and just be like, man, you sure were not showing up in ways that you claimed to or wanted to because it was too scary. And so, yeah, like you're saying, you ab I was like, let me just a classic nice guy behavior, but it's like, let me just do extra chores and hope they like outweigh or like somehow there's a weight that she feels that she will now care about these other things because I'm just heaping so much,
Joshua Hamilton: I've
Brennan Hopkins: you
Joshua Hamilton: got everything
Brennan Hopkins: know,
Joshua Hamilton: in this backpack.
 
 

00:43:00

 
Brennan Hopkins: practical
Joshua Hamilton: I'll
Brennan Hopkins: guilt.
Joshua Hamilton: carry everything.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: I'll carry absolutely
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: everything.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: The
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: whole house.
Brennan Hopkins: And they'll have this self-recogn. The thing is was like that is that's a copout for having hard conversations because it's like let me make my life miserable and hope the other person notices and then cares enough
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: to then do it. But the pro the whole reason we're in that situation is because theoretically they're not paying attention to you like they should be in the first place. So what are you gonna like why that's a terrible strategy if they're not even looking at you anyways. hurting yourself more isn't gonna like make them suddenly start paying attention, you know? That's like that is it's just it's just a wimpy way really to to deal with with hard scenarios, frankly.
Joshua Hamilton: But isn't it amazing that the way that it's literally the opposite the way that we think, okay, cool.
 
 

00:43:54

 
Joshua Hamilton: I'll get more love and respect is if I do this thing over here, I'll do more of these things so they see
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: me here. And the exact opposite starts happening. You get more whining. You get more disrespect. You get more of those things. You get more
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: walked over. It's a really bizarre game, but at the same time, you can see why it works the other way. You You mentioned the check engine light. You don't know if there's dust in there, if it's about to explode. What
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: were what was your experience either from your parents or people around you about what a healthy relationship looked like? Did you have any
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Um, I I I was got to see a lot of relationships. I would say I I didn't I'm I'm from the South and there is a very much like sweep things under the rug or a kind of picture perfect way of presenting things.
 
 

00:45:00

 
Brennan Hopkins: So I was yeah I like I got to have close proximity. I spent the night over friends a lot. I was friends genuinely with a lot of my friends parents. They were the majority of them were married you know. So, I I had a lot of like healthy relationships with people that were married, but I was not really I was not exposed really to the rocky side of those things. And I did not really learn how to how to navigate that in a healthy way.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: And I would say this is a this is a bonus, but like as someone that has more of an achiever style tendency, that's actually quite paralyzing because the fear of getting it wrong actually will cause me to not do anything, which is worse than doing the wrong thing in those circumstances.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: But fear of so then I just like deal with the current scenario because it's like oh no, I might do it incorrectly. whereas it Yeah. Um but I I would I
 
 

00:46:10

 
Joshua Hamilton: Heat.
Brennan Hopkins: just saw there was very little conflict in my own parents relationship and I've had conversations with my dad about that. Um especially kind of in the other side of some of these things. But I feel like there were skills for I I feel like I didn't learn some certain skills about navigating differing opinions or whatever growing up that I'm trying to learn and have been trying to learn, you know, to do in a healthy way really. And um that's that that's the that's the evolution though of of health and growth, right? You know, so both of my parents come from quite broken backgrounds. And so the fact of like what they were able to what they've been able to build and achieve together, frankly, I am a recipient of a lot of health and stability because of the because of what they the foundation that they've laid and now I'm in a position to be able to add another layer
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah. Perfect.
Brennan Hopkins: to
Joshua Hamilton: That
Brennan Hopkins: that
 
 

00:47:25

 
Joshua Hamilton: is exactly
Brennan Hopkins: because
Joshua Hamilton: it.
Brennan Hopkins: because of the of the the work the of the hard work that they put in, you know.
Joshua Hamilton: I find it really interesting that we have this idea. We have this lovely saying as guys that we flippantly say often. happy wife, happy life.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah,
Joshua Hamilton: It's like, as long as she's happy, life's good. But we think making her happy is doing all these things, allowing her
Brennan Hopkins: sure.
Joshua Hamilton: to walk over
Brennan Hopkins: Sure.
Joshua Hamilton: us and all these things. And it's like when we see that, when we can see growth through conflict, so we see a relationship where they argue or they have that, you know, there's there's conflict there, tension, and then we see growth from it, it's like, oh wow, that's oh s***, that's how you do it. Okay. Right. I I'll
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: learn that and take it on. But we don't see that very often because how and I'll put my hand up.
 
 

00:48:14

 
Joshua Hamilton: f****** hell. I would have worn the shirt. I was the nice guy. I was like, man. Okay, babe.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Exactly.
Joshua Hamilton: Sorry. Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: There
Joshua Hamilton: No,
Brennan Hopkins: you go.
Joshua Hamilton: I I'll
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: keep keep Don't leave me. Keep you happy. Whatever
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. There
Joshua Hamilton: Whatever
Brennan Hopkins: you
Joshua Hamilton: it
Brennan Hopkins: go.
Joshua Hamilton: takes. Whatever it takes. I'll keep you happy.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Funny
Brennan Hopkins: Well,
Joshua Hamilton: game.
Brennan Hopkins: I so the the sentiment happy wife, happy life to me is very I mean it's sad, but I mean there's a it's also true. Like women are are powerful. Like women are powerful, man. And it's awesome. Like that's why we like them. But also, what do you think relationships are? Like you just thought you were going to get like a roommate that only brought these like beauty and grace and then you could just continue to function as if you were an individual.
 
 

00:48:58

 
Brennan Hopkins: Like what the hell, bro? Like grow up, stay single.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: like get some housemates and like it's either everything in life there is no perfect win-win scenario because other people are involved and they have their own needs. They have their own challenges and it's like so a lot of I'll be honest a lot of the things that I just like you're just selfish like get over yourself. Like when did you think that you were going to join lives with another person and then keep complete autonomy?
Joshua Hamilton: That is brilliant. I literally had this conversation yesterday with Flur. She was talking about what why is it when men cheat generally it's with younger women and and these sorts of things and what is it that's so attractive about it? And I was I was talking it actually led to the crazy hot scale. I you ever seen that awesome graph where the guy finds the nine out of 10 and he's like this is a unicorn but
Brennan Hopkins: Okay.
Joshua Hamilton: I was I was like every man's like yeah I just want the you know the freak in the sheets lady in the street kind of thing.
 
 

00:50:00

 
Joshua Hamilton: I want this seductive queen. I'm like cool man
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: you know that sounds awesome. How much can you handle her craziness? Oh no I don't want I don't want f*** crazy. I don't want I don't want to deal with any of the wrath part. And I'm like,
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: well, bro, as much as you can deal with the wrath and the anger
Brennan Hopkins: That's
Joshua Hamilton: is
Brennan Hopkins: the thing,
Joshua Hamilton: how
Brennan Hopkins: right?
Joshua Hamilton: much you're
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: going to get the other end of the spectrum. You can't
Brennan Hopkins: That's
Joshua Hamilton: just have
Brennan Hopkins: exactly.
Joshua Hamilton: all the goodies.
Brennan Hopkins: You don't get it. Yes.
Joshua Hamilton: You don't
Brennan Hopkins: That's
Joshua Hamilton: get the goodies.
Brennan Hopkins: exactly right. Yes.
Joshua Hamilton: So, it's like it's really interesting
Brennan Hopkins: I
Joshua Hamilton: when when people
Brennan Hopkins: I'll
Joshua Hamilton: talk about it.
Brennan Hopkins: I used to say this and this is going to sound harsh, but I meant it in a very I I mean it in an encouraging amazing way, but I was like I used to say this to some of my friends back in like the you know my mid20s early when they was because people were getting married a lot earlier when I was um when where I come from and it's a bit like guys would talk about
 
 

00:50:49

 
Brennan Hopkins: yeah women uh yeah potentially being difficult or whatever. are and I was like I was like guys like this is the problem with like strong independent women is that they are strong independent women. So like you either are appreciate that and value which I do
Joshua Hamilton: Yep.
Brennan Hopkins: and recognize that there's going to be disagreements because they have their own thoughts which I mean they will anyways like that's I'm not trying to but it's just like you don't you don't get that. Also the freaking sheets just sounds exhausting and intimidating. I'm like, I don't think I want to have to. I was like, I'm like, whenever people This is This is going to be hilarious. You can edit it out if you want, but whenever people are like, I want a girl that's like crazy in bed. I was like, you must not be a very attentive lover because it's exhausting. I'm like, it's like, whoa,
Joshua Hamilton: That's brilliant. That's
Brennan Hopkins: you're
Joshua Hamilton: You
Brennan Hopkins: talking
Joshua Hamilton: know what?
 
 

00:51:46

 
Joshua Hamilton: I
Brennan Hopkins: like
Joshua Hamilton: just Are you Give me Are you a five out of 10? Yeah. I'm just looking for like a three or four out of 10. I don't want to get
Brennan Hopkins: My
Joshua Hamilton: too tired doing this. Right.
Brennan Hopkins: my favorite thing to do on posts on Facebook or whatever when people are like real men don't I always put have more orgasms than their partner.
Joshua Hamilton: So good.
Brennan Hopkins: Switch that switch that perspective and let's see how many of you guys are like all about that. It's like buddy. Anyway, do we digress?
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah, that's good though. I like that. I think I think it's a really cool thing. And if men recognize that, oh, I want a strong independent woman. Do you?
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah,
Joshua Hamilton: Do you? Because think about that for a moment. It's got to everything's got a double side, right? Double-edged sword, double-sided
Brennan Hopkins: that's
Joshua Hamilton: coin,
Brennan Hopkins: exactly
Joshua Hamilton: whatever.
 
 

00:52:30

 
Brennan Hopkins: right.
Joshua Hamilton: You got to play with
Brennan Hopkins: That's
Joshua Hamilton: both.
Brennan Hopkins: exactly right.
Joshua Hamilton: I want
Brennan Hopkins: And
Joshua Hamilton: a woman
Brennan Hopkins: like
Joshua Hamilton: who can be independent, doesn't have to rely on me all the time. I'm like, cool, man. Do you know what else that comes with?
Brennan Hopkins: guess what's going to happen? She's gonna do her own things and make decisions without you. And like Yeah. But that's the big and and this is where I just want to keep bringing it back. I It's good to have these like bigger picture like reference point kind of conversations, but that's where you got to really you got to bring it back and be radically honest with who you are and where you're at and what you're willing to because like that's that's not the woman's fault. I I'll never forget sitting with a good mate of mine, one of my best mates, telling me about this relationship and how they were struggling. And this is shortly after mine dissolved, you know, and there were Yeah.
 
 

00:53:23

 
Brennan Hopkins: you know, and he was he was saying to me how there were certain things that he really wanted from the relationship that just didn't seem to be there and some of the expectations and stuff that she was putting on him. And I and like at first, you know, it's like, oh no, this is like really unhealthy. There's a lot of overlap between what I went through and what you're dealing with. And as we unpacked it a little bit, not to say that there wasn't still it wasn't an unhealthy per se relationship, but I just called him straight up. I was like, "Mate, like you're the one being inauthentic in this relationship. She's actually showing up exactly how she wants to be." And she's being honest with you about it, too. She's not even beating around the bush. you are the one trying to force her to conform to some ideal that she has shown you over and over again that she's not. So I'm like that's actually your responsibility
Joshua Hamilton: Good
Brennan Hopkins: because
 
 

00:54:22

 
Joshua Hamilton: call, bro.
Brennan Hopkins: she's showing up authentically and yeah it was like well I mean that's the thing like he had to come to terms with a lot of things that like oh no I made a poor decision. Oh, no. I thought that I wanted this and I actually want this other thing. Like all of those we have to f****** admit that we're wrong a lot. And that's hard. And like a lot of I mean people in general, but like a lot of men are so stubborn that they will like shoot their foot off before they will admit that they've done things incorrectly. And like that's just an ego thing like that. You're not impressing your Well, the only people that you're impressing are people that you don't need to be impressing with that.
Joshua Hamilton: M what you did for your friend is I talk about this a bit with a kind we need more friends who are kind not nice
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: is so good that's h I had something that popped into my mind but it's withered away somewhere.
 
 

00:55:30

 
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah, it'll come back if it's important.
Brennan Hopkins: So I I can take you through then the kind of progression of of where I was because obviously
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: all
Joshua Hamilton: I
Brennan Hopkins: that
Joshua Hamilton: want to
Brennan Hopkins: stuff
Joshua Hamilton: I
Brennan Hopkins: was
Joshua Hamilton: want to
Brennan Hopkins: going on.
Joshua Hamilton: kind of understand. So, we we've got the we've got the starter relationship and it went on for 9 years. Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: So,
Brennan Hopkins: Uhhuh.
Joshua Hamilton: I kind of want to understand there must have been bits in it where you were like, "Oh, yeah. No, I can probably keep doing this or and then you're kind of roller coasting along cuz what was it after that? And I What was the thing that you were like, I'll marry this girl? Was it a I'll marry this girl and it'll solve all our problems or that was it just kind of naturally the next step? What was what happened as you went through college and went to the
 
 

00:56:13

 
Brennan Hopkins: Oh,
Joshua Hamilton: step
Brennan Hopkins: she
Joshua Hamilton: marriage?
Brennan Hopkins: was pressuring me to marry her for sure. And this is I would tell people I would tell people straight up that I was like, "Yeah, like why did you want to get married?" And I was like, "Well, you know, we're kind of different people and we probably would have headed in different directions, but we actually wanted to figure out a direction together, which she was quite resentful for that. It's so funny that I would have said that because she would get mad, but that's what I was. I was like we're very two strong people with different interests and you either Yeah. Like that's the thing, right? You pick you decide to try and figure out something together or you just go your separate ways.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: And so there was a lot of things that I really respected about her and I could see the way that she complimented my weaknesses and that I could grow a lot like from having a relationship with her. Um, so yeah, it was like a and obviously there was like pressure from her, which is not uncommon in at least that context um to to lock it down, but
 
 

00:57:27

 
Joshua Hamilton: Was she religious as well?
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Mhm. So, and I mean, yeah, like we had already, it's so funny because you look at start to finish and it was like just over two years from when we started dating to when we were married, but we were slow in comparison to some of my friends.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: So that's the context that we're in, you know, and um but this is something that I I want to talk about as well that is really important to me about just the whole relationship in general. You know, you ask me for moments that it's like were there moments where it's like maybe I
Joshua Hamilton: Heat.
Brennan Hopkins: can still do this. And this is the thing, like there was so many beautiful moments in my relationship. I wouldn't be who I am today without having been with her. And this is the other thing that's super important is like if you're a grown adult, there are very few circumstances that you're in that you're not getting something out of.
 
 

00:58:32

 
Brennan Hopkins: That's why you're still in them.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: You know, we have this illusion that it's like, oh, and then I was trapped in this thing. No, you wanted the security. You wanted the stability. You wanted certainty. You had moment. You didn't want loneliness. You didn't want I was like, no, like you were actually getting a lot. So, just take some ownership over what you were actually receiving from this rather than just trying to blame pass the blame for all the things that were missing.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah, you're
Brennan Hopkins: And that's
Joshua Hamilton: cramming
Brennan Hopkins: not
Joshua Hamilton: a
Brennan Hopkins: to
Joshua Hamilton: lot
Brennan Hopkins: say
Joshua Hamilton: of repair into a short space of time. I'm impressed like to go through that
Brennan Hopkins: hey.
Joshua Hamilton: and then look back and like already have the gratitude of man, she gave me a lot like
Brennan Hopkins: Oh, I felt that from the very beginning because my if you're really honest with yourself about you're equally messed up, that means you're also causing the other person pain and it's a privilege that they're also choosing to be with you.
 
 

00:59:36

 
Joshua Hamilton: That's a good way to look at it.
Brennan Hopkins: And there are things that I there's hurt that my ex the ways that I hurt my ex that she might have never been hurt if she hadn't have been with me. So I don't get to say how dare you do that to me and be like but it's fine that I also caused you pain. you just don't like get over yourself like a and so it's just super arrogant to pretend that like you were actually that perfect and that you're just such a joy of like a ball of light to be around that people are blessed with your presence and their life is just instantly one million times better and they never feel any negative things because of you being in the room with them. Like that is just that's that's really scary. But that's how a lot of people function. And that inhibits your ability to be honest about your own s***, which this is what this is all about. It's all it's it is it is recognizing unhealth.
 
 

01:00:43

 
Brennan Hopkins: But it's about you taking action and like responsibility and action to do something about it within your power. And I'm saying most people don't
Joshua Hamilton: I would agree.
Brennan Hopkins: And instead they blame, they scapegoat, they rage, they do all these other things except the thing that actually helps which is take ownership, take action and do the actual hard things, like not like the pseudo, not like 75 hard like, bro, you don't need to work out twice a day. Like calm the f*** down. You're just not having some conversations. So stop using that as an escape. Just have the hard conversation.
Joshua Hamilton: And and you nailed it. It's like the the hard thing for you at the time was, well, I'll just do more of the chores. I'll just take over the cleaning. I'll just take over the cooking. I was like, if I carry the stuff rather than doing the hard things. It's really
Brennan Hopkins: That's
Joshua Hamilton: interesting,
Brennan Hopkins: right.
Joshua Hamilton: eh?
Brennan Hopkins: It's actually easier.
 
 

01:01:40

 
Brennan Hopkins: And this is, you know what's fascinating? You know, this is why so many relationships are terrible with with work life balance and stuff for men because it's actually easier to pull extra hours at the office than it is to emotionally engage with your family.
Joshua Hamilton: But I'm doing
Brennan Hopkins: It
Joshua Hamilton: it for
Brennan Hopkins: is.
Joshua Hamilton: her.
Brennan Hopkins: But you Yes. And now I've just used that as a guard so you can no longer catch him. No, bro. You are weak because you are you are underdeveloped. You've got no calves, bro. All triangle. No legs. No legs, Rob.
Joshua Hamilton: No leg day. Always back
Brennan Hopkins: No
Joshua Hamilton: in bl
Brennan Hopkins: legs. Always. And sure, it looks great in the photos that are from the waist up, but when it really counts, there's nothing there. And stop saying it. It just it just like Yeah. And so we we digress. I'm really passionate obviously about
 
 

01:02:37

 
Joshua Hamilton: Right.
Brennan Hopkins: all of this
Joshua Hamilton: No, we
Brennan Hopkins: all
Joshua Hamilton: don't digress
Brennan Hopkins: all this
Joshua Hamilton: because
Brennan Hopkins: stuff.
Joshua Hamilton: you are spot
Brennan Hopkins: So,
Joshua Hamilton: on. That is the that is the heaviest hitting thing. It's like to realize, f***, I've been saying I've been doing it all for my family all this time. And I'm like, no, dude. Look in the mirror. You've been doing this
Brennan Hopkins: no.
Joshua Hamilton: for you. Dodging
Brennan Hopkins: Yes,
Joshua Hamilton: the hard conversation.
Brennan Hopkins: that's
Joshua Hamilton: Dodging
Brennan Hopkins: exactly
Joshua Hamilton: the hard
Brennan Hopkins: right.
Joshua Hamilton: stuff. I just do some more work at home and come home. Like sneak into bed and then sneak out early. I don't have to have the conversation about the thing. I don't have to worry about the kid. It it's amazing how automatically
Brennan Hopkins: I
Joshua Hamilton: we will dish out
Brennan Hopkins: we know that
Joshua Hamilton: responsibility.
Brennan Hopkins: but they and then we're just like what do you mean someone comes to approach us even her or kids whatever our mate something to have this conversation what do you mean I'm doing this superior thing well you're using that to be called the superior thing but I reckon if we pull the the the pull the audience here the superior thing would actually be having this conversation because I think that's actually that's like what you hear 99.1
 
 

01:03:36

 
Brennan Hopkins: million% of the time is like the woman is like, I don't care about money. I just want
Joshua Hamilton: Every
Brennan Hopkins: you
Joshua Hamilton: time.
Brennan Hopkins: to be here. It's just every time. It's
Joshua Hamilton: Every
Brennan Hopkins: like every
Joshua Hamilton: time.
Brennan Hopkins: time. And then guys, we're just like, we're just like, so I see that, but I'm just going to do the opposite and it'll probably be fine.
Joshua Hamilton: Oh, yes. I love our formulas. They They're just They're so good. They're great for life.
Brennan Hopkins: Well, there's a there's a level like I have a lot of empathy because I mean it's not too many generations ago that we were Vikings. So, there has been a rapid expectation for men to develop certain skill sets that may or may not have been present for a long time.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: You know, but
Joshua Hamilton: Oh.
Brennan Hopkins: I'm sorry, bro. Like, we're not Vikings anymore. So, invent a time machine and go back to being a Viking if you want to be a Viking.
 
 

01:04:28

 
Brennan Hopkins: and pillage and do those things and just bail. Cool. But that's not where we're at. So like either ma do the new version of manning up which is owning all this s*** or like stop pretending to be a man.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Stop claiming Stop claiming that you're the man. It's really
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: interesting
Brennan Hopkins: Exactly.
Joshua Hamilton: you say that because our perception of time as humans is so f****** limited. But I'm like, you only have to go back to the war. The war was two generations ago. So my granddad, it's like those men came back pretty f***** up.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: f*****
Brennan Hopkins: Mhm.
Joshua Hamilton: up. And the guys who didn't go, they were f***** up as well cuz they had all the guilt and shame of that. And then
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: they taught our fathers how to be a man. I'm like,
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: and they have taught us to be a man. That's two sets of men.
 
 

01:05:17

 
Joshua Hamilton: That is not that long ago. That's insane.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: So there is empathy there to be like and then there's only a few scattered around. We have no elders. That's gone. f*** that. That that
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: went ages ago. Who is the role model now? And it's like well for a lot of people that's still the role model. I'm like that's a and then you've got to throw it onto a bunch of guys to hey guys you got to role model this and we need to see all this change. And women seem to be fast. I don't know what it is but they seem to be fast.
Brennan Hopkins: Well, well, that's only because we're playing in a sphere that is more their expertise. That's the thing. Because if
Joshua Hamilton: All
Brennan Hopkins: we
Joshua Hamilton: right.
Brennan Hopkins: were like everyone needs to level up and have a higher vertical leap, you know, men would excel there. But the thing is, and again, you just like you can find different communities.
 
 

01:06:03

 
Brennan Hopkins: You can be mad about it. That's fine. This is the world we live in. So like, in my opinion, manning up is is being the best version of a man in the man that you're in. I mean, in the world that you're in.
Joshua Hamilton: In the world. Yeah. In the world.
Brennan Hopkins: In
Joshua Hamilton: That
Brennan Hopkins: the world
Joshua Hamilton: that's
Brennan Hopkins: that you're in.
Joshua Hamilton: the use of the man. What is the use of the man in the world like right now? It's the man who
Brennan Hopkins: Yes.
Joshua Hamilton: has that ability to establish
Brennan Hopkins: And
Joshua Hamilton: a relationship
Brennan Hopkins: I
Joshua Hamilton: to
Brennan Hopkins: would
Joshua Hamilton: father.
Brennan Hopkins: say
Joshua Hamilton: That's it.
Brennan Hopkins: exactly a
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: healthy EQ is is essential. And
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: we if if you want to blame this is like it's already a terrible this is already like a terrible scapegoating thing anyways to blame past generations for where you're at. But if you want to blame past generations for not being attentive enough or whatever, then guess whose responsibility is to start cultivating that s*** and doing it for their own kids?
 
 

01:06:51

 
Brennan Hopkins: Yours, bro. So like you can't have it both ways. Like either they were emotionally stunted and you're and that's a real problem. If if you could believe that's a problem, then it's actually your responsibility to do something about it. for now and future generations, you're supposed to break the line or it's not a big problem and you can't blame your deficiencies on that.
Joshua Hamilton: But but bench press.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Exactly. Right.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: Oh,
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: it's I'm I'm so glad you brought that up cuz it's such a f*** it's powerful for piece, but it's a very very reflective piece. And also that idea of like the two people coming together and you're just going to continue living your individual life. I we I talk about it in in our sphere of coaching quite a bit. I was like your biggest coach is always going to be if you're with a female partner, she
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: going to be your mirror every single day.
 
 

01:07:50

 
Joshua Hamilton: She's going to be one that makes you the most angry. She's going to be the one that hits your biggest pain points and your biggest wounds. She's
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: going to hit all those things. And if you
Brennan Hopkins: Mhm.
Joshua Hamilton: don't have a level of awareness and skill set to develop that, you will always default to crushing things through conflict rather than growing. And
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: it's it's a it's a hard game. It's a proper hard game. It is by
Brennan Hopkins: Mhm.
Joshua Hamilton: far more challenging than getting into the sporting arena. It's the actual arena of where we're where we're weakest because it's is the hardest game for us. Really is.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. No, like like that's confronting. And how do you how it how do you maintain a healthy sense of self when you're when you're being confronted with the reality that you're not nearly as awesome as you thought you are? Like that's actually that's what's happening is
 
 

01:08:47

 
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: you're getting a lot of reminders over and over and over again that you're like f*** I am not as good of a person as I thought I did. Like and I I've said this to people before. feels like I was way more I was like a way better person when I was single because my s*** didn't impact anyone else. So I was just like ignorant, you
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: know? It's like I'm amazing. Like look how easy, look how perfect everything is. And then all of a sudden you get in proximity with another person and it's a mirror. It's like it starts getting all over them and you're like oh no.
Joshua Hamilton: It's so amazing. I'm so much better by myself. Oh, yeah. I bet you are because you don't have to look at any of your s***. You're awesome.
Brennan Hopkins: That's
Joshua Hamilton: You're perfect.
Brennan Hopkins: exactly right. Yeah. Exactly.
Joshua Hamilton: Great.
Brennan Hopkins: Obviously.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
 
 

01:09:25

 
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah, it's
Joshua Hamilton: So,
Brennan Hopkins: like
Joshua Hamilton: you guys got married two and a half years in.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: Where did you where did you where did you go together? Like what were the kind of I always I kind of had a basic rule in my head which was weird. I had to travel with the person, buy something big and I can't remember what the third one was like go through some challenge and that was kind of my tick boxes for like a yes I
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: found
Brennan Hopkins: Okay.
Joshua Hamilton: it. What
Brennan Hopkins: Uhhuh.
Joshua Hamilton: were the what were the kind of big adventures or challenges that you guys set set out on next? like obviously finished uni, went to work,
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah, look, I mean, because of the religious Christian background, it was pretty like, are we just going to commit to each other or whatever? Because we weren't we were actually not sexually active. Um, so that um I
Joshua Hamilton: how
Brennan Hopkins: I
Joshua Hamilton: much
 
 

01:10:14

 
Brennan Hopkins: don't know like we we did a few things. Hey.
Joshua Hamilton: how much does that play on the idea of getting married?
Brennan Hopkins: Okay. I have very strong feelings about this
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: only because because my ex was an assault victim. It made our first year of marriage like I I'm just like we could not successfully have intercourse my whole first year of marriage.
Joshua Hamilton: Wow. Yeah, that's
Brennan Hopkins: So,
Joshua Hamilton: tough.
Brennan Hopkins: it didn't actually work until the one year our one year anniversary.
Joshua Hamilton: Wow.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. And and so like I but I it's just I sex is and this is this is actually let's let's ah this is going to be interesting because this is ironically like what was some of the catalyst for some of the breakdown later on but like for me I sexy is an important part of life, but it's not the only part of life.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: And
Joshua Hamilton: When I
Brennan Hopkins: let's
Joshua Hamilton: was when
Brennan Hopkins: say,
 
 

01:11:31

 
Joshua Hamilton: I was 21, it was pretty important. I I'll
Brennan Hopkins: yeah, but let's say you're above average. So, you have sex twice a week. Oh my goodness. Twice a week. What's it lasting? Like 28 minutes, maybe. Okay. You got like an hour out of a whole seven days period. And people are like, and this is like 90% of what you should judge off of something off of. I'm like, "Do you know what love is? Do you know what intimacy is?" Like I And so I It was very interesting. I was out for drinks with a couple of friends recently and both of them and were women and they were quite opinionated about this and they were like, "Oh no, I could never I could never commit to someone that I hadn't like slept with because I need to know what the vibe is like." And I was like, "Well, I mean, fair enough. I was with I was married to someone for seven and a half years and I that was like sure there were areas where I just I don't think I needed to sleep with a person before.
 
 

01:12:36

 
Brennan Hopkins: I think I knew I think you can gather enough information by the overall vibe like I think you know I don't Yeah. And and so whenever someone is like a and then we just weren't a fit in the like the sparks were amazing and then we're fit in the bed. I'm like I don't think that was actually that. I think there was like the mystery is gone now which is like welcome to real life
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: brother.
Joshua Hamilton: Dust
Brennan Hopkins: Like
Joshua Hamilton: off all the glitter.
Brennan Hopkins: yeah exactly. I was like so and like I I think that yeah there is a there is a beauty in the intimacy and the connection that comes from from sex that's way more than just the like hormonal like thing like the chemical things which I mean don't get me wrong like I'm a fan of that that's I'm not anti that but it's a it's a terrible It feels like a terrible metric to use as like the as it with the distribution that it tends
 
 

01:13:44

 
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: to get. People
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: are like it's like 30% sex. I was like wow that is very high since that's actually like what 170th of your week
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: if
Joshua Hamilton: It's
Brennan Hopkins: you're
Joshua Hamilton: a
Brennan Hopkins: above
Joshua Hamilton: small amount.
Brennan Hopkins: average.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: If
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: you're above
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: average
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you put it statistically, it's quite it's quite funny. It's quite funny. So, okay. So you guys you finished uni. Did you go off? Did you move in together somewhere? What happened then?
Brennan Hopkins: Oh, yeah. Well, we got married shortly after we graduated. Um, and then, well, no, it was like a year later, I reckon. And then, yeah, moved in. We were in our uni town. It was just a pretty like uninspiring place, frankly. Like it's cool for if you if you want what's there, if you want something more than that, you kind of got to get out or you'll get sucked into the routine kind of
 
 

01:14:33

 
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: vibe, you know, just that kind of that scenario. And so that's when we started that's when we started considering traveling. It was super exciting. Um uh you know, I started I started working online. My ex also was doing some like tutoring. That's another there was, you know, there was just there was issues for her not with with her like not putting in necessarily the same amount of effort to to generate our in income online even though we were very equal at this point and also very but again I I didn't I didn't push I I brought things up but I did not have some like hard conversations around contribution like contributing and what is a healthy like what's healthy expectation is you know and I just I yeah I I should have yeah I should have had a lot of conversations really you know and tried to work it out and been willing to risk some of the things whereas obviously now now I will look for some of these characteristics in my future partner cuz I know.
 
 

01:15:56

 
Brennan Hopkins: But this is the thing. If you're in something, you either leave it or you do the work to hopefully figure out a way forward. Like that's it. Those are your two options. So like I don't you don't get to like complain that this person isn't your most ideal thing if you're not willing to have the hard conversations to and to to be patient and to work with the person in growing in certain areas.
Joshua Hamilton: I think that's one of the hardships people who have been kind of single into later years, like into your late 30s, early 40s, you become this quite independent person. It's really nice to have that. And then we get
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: really picky. We're like, h I don't like the way you eat ice
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: cream, you know,
Brennan Hopkins: I agree.
Joshua Hamilton: and we're not willing to have that conversation or we're not willing to change that. We're not willing to work on it. Nah, that sounds too hard.
 
 

01:16:43

 
Joshua Hamilton: I'm
Brennan Hopkins: Yep.
Joshua Hamilton: more awesome by myself. So, we we
Brennan Hopkins: I
Joshua Hamilton: have that default.
Brennan Hopkins: I have I have no regrets for marrying girly because it forced me to learn how to grow up being considerate of another person. Even this season of singleness is like it's a it well it's not awesome. It's whatever but like it's a little scary to me. I'm like oh no what kind of because I've been with a housemate a couple of weeks now and like we're in the kitchen at the same time. We're going he's like showering at the same time. I'm like what is going on here? Like I'm out of practice. But yeah, there's like a lot of undoing that has the longer that you're in an individual, the more patterns and behaviors that theoretically you have to undo now out of consideration for another person.
Joshua Hamilton: I can see how showering at the same time with a male flatmate is
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: awkward for a straight guy.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah,
 
 

01:17:35

 
Joshua Hamilton: I
Brennan Hopkins: it's
Joshua Hamilton: can
Brennan Hopkins: true.
Joshua Hamilton: I can see how that would be awkward. That's challenging.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: That's really you're really going after the growth there. That's good.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: So, so walk me through then what what happened after you
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: guys got
Brennan Hopkins: You
Joshua Hamilton: a
Brennan Hopkins: know,
Joshua Hamilton: job,
Brennan Hopkins: there
Joshua Hamilton: the
Brennan Hopkins: were
Joshua Hamilton: contribution
Brennan Hopkins: just
Joshua Hamilton: factor.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. highs and lows. The thing is is like so she um had some kind of big career dreams. So we she um worked in she yeah she worked in mental health and was got a job here in Australia. sponsorship was really awesome and it was kind of like cutting edge what the support they were doing for for those with for people with addictions and stuff like that. Super awesome. And then until it wasn't which was like three or four months in, you know, and then lots of issues that came up and um so then there was like frustration and pressure to then try and find something else.
 
 

01:18:35

 
Brennan Hopkins: So then got the other dream job you know, the even more dream job came up. She got it. She's from what I could tell like really good at what she does. And then same scenario like three to four months later is not the dream job anymore, you know, which is
Joshua Hamilton: Mhm.
Brennan Hopkins: just a pattern of like an inability to be happy. I would say that happy but like satisfied you know it's just um and so that we we did travel a lot leading up into COVID and then CO obviously shut that down and I would say we were good for a while but eventually I'd say by like because WA the borders were just locked down so we just couldn't really go anywhere for I mean we had freedom in comparison to other places but um it was eventually that war on us because that was like a shared thing that we had but I say it also became evident that that was probably an escape that we used to like distract ourselves from some of the other stuff that we weren't willing to have conversations about.
 
 

01:19:44

 
Brennan Hopkins: And during COVID, there was a pretty big scenario with a um with a with some friends that we were close to where the Yeah. Yeah. Where the the wife showed up at our house at like 9:30 at night and being like there was, you know, we got into like a bit of a physical scenario and my husband was like a bit was yeah, there was some hands on and not a good way, you know, and stuff and it was potentially it was definitely exacerbated but but anyways, you know, and I was like, "Oh, oh, wow." And as I looked at as I looked at that relationship and some of the dynamic, I realized that there were a lot of similarities in how I was being treated in my own marriage. honestly that they weren't practically the same thing, but it's like, oh, we're going on walks and I'm being bered for like 15 minutes for not being good enough, even though or what I'm doing for with my work isn't good enough, even though it's still the primary income, you know, even though all the, you know, there was just like these kind of and it wasn't until I saw a relationship where there was a similar level of like that control or abuse kind of mirrored that I started realizing, oh wait, I'm experiencing versions of this exact same thing like in my own relationship and I didn't Yeah.
 
 

01:21:27

 
Brennan Hopkins: I just I didn't know. And that's what that that's part of where I'll I'll still come back as much as I'm about radical responsibility. Yeah. Like you can be systematically trained and diminished and demeaned like to to accept things
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: that are not healthy and that are damaging. And that's like very wrong. And that's that's terrible that that happens to people,
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: you know. Um, and so it's a really weird tension to be like you can be both really treated poorly or wrongly and and and there's people that need to like actually just sit in that probably there are men right now that need to just be like, "Oh, I've actually" and
Joshua Hamilton: That's
Brennan Hopkins: it's not about whose fault it is right now. It just is this was not right that
Joshua Hamilton: this
Brennan Hopkins: I've
Joshua Hamilton: is
Brennan Hopkins: that
Joshua Hamilton: what I
Brennan Hopkins: I've
Joshua Hamilton: want to
Brennan Hopkins: been through
Joshua Hamilton: kind
Brennan Hopkins: this.
Joshua Hamilton: of and it's hard because when it's early days the triggers aren't as explosive or are hard to become aware of but what would you to kind of help guys see it.
 
 

01:22:48

 
Joshua Hamilton: What would you look for early on that kind of led you to be in that train state to you became really aware of, holy s***, I think I'm pretty deep in this hole.
Brennan Hopkins: Um, well, I would just say that there was a high level of just dismissal of who of me as a person, frankly. And there was what seemed to be unaligned expectations or behaviors.
Joshua Hamilton: So she was able to do one thing. You weren't allowed to do that thing.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. or like that, you know, and things that are I I like things were weaponized against me. For instance, you know, I like we always spent Saturday morning together, which was like a beautiful thing, but occasionally my mates would like go golfing or whatever and and I already saw like my ex, you know, we I well I worked for myself. I we already spent most breakfasts together at home. I would make her breakfast. We had dinner together three to four nights a week, whatever, you know, minimum like just us.
 
 

01:24:22

 
Brennan Hopkins: We went on big walks. It's like we spent hours and hours and hours together. And then I was shamed for like the one time on a week that my mates were getting together that was supposedly our time even though like all of our time was our time.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: I was the bad guy for like want for even considering that. And it's not I I I it's hard because I want to I want to be really careful when I say things like that because I think there are a lot of men that are just absent and selfish and like I I'm not advocate advocating for that. I'm saying if you were to look at my week statistically and the amount of intentional engagement that I had with her and the family and you know as a unit it it was substantially it was it was a very at a very high level and it was actually unfair for her to accuse me of any of these things because I my my actions had proven otherwise.
 
 

01:25:16

 
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: Whereas a lot of cases men are like that's unfair. It's like, well, no, look at your track record, mate. Like, you're just not around. So, like, that's accurate and that's confronting and you got to deal with it. But I I didn't know how to make that distinction and that's the issue, you know, like I didn't know that I was being like essentially gaslit in that way.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: I was afraid that maybe I was just being inattentive, which it felt weird, you know, the tension was strange because it's like I don't know how much more. And that's what that's what eventually led to the to the breakdown. It was just like this insatiableness for like higher like more and more and more which and I'll go ahead and like get to it but like it kind of you know culate it did culminate but the first time is like my being like oh I want to have a threesome like just out of nowhere and I'm like what are you talking about you want to have a threesome like we had already been married for like six years you know I'm so confused what's going on and also I'm like I know that this is really bad.
 
 

01:26:18

 
Brennan Hopkins: But it's like I I know that we have an above average sex life.
Joshua Hamilton: Statistically,
Brennan Hopkins: Statistically, I was like, I know what the average is for women. I know what your average is. I was like, I'm really confused. I work very hard. That's why I'm like I was like, what do you It's like this is a big thing. I like what do you mean? You want to take this to the next level, but we can't. So, let's just introduce new novel concepts to try and like get us over because we've already peaked here,
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: you know, kind of thing. And um yeah, so it was like whoa. And then that was I unfortunately I'd say that was kind of like the beginning of the end really is because the and I I was also I started going to therapy for some other things because she basically was accusing me I and like look this is like fair enough. is hard, but like I I was struggling with certain levels of attraction because I felt like she just stopped putting in effort and stopped caring.
 
 

01:27:29

 
Brennan Hopkins: And then I was the bad guy for being visually driven as a man and not emotionally heart driven.
Joshua Hamilton: Wait a second. Cool.
Brennan Hopkins: and not caring about, you know, all these amazing other things, which I never said I didn't. I did value them a lot.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: Um, yeah. So I started going to therapy and that journey like really it just started taking helping me take ownership of a lot of myself and it was like very interesting because it was a return really to a more authentic version of myself which was fascinating because I'm like wow it was the contrast was interesting because I would say that my ex was like evolving into this person that was just nothing like what she was before and I would say in therapy, I started becoming more like who I was before her, but with retaining
Joshua Hamilton: the wisdom.
Brennan Hopkins: a lot of the like the beauty and the Yeah. that had came from from that. Like like I said, she taught me a lot.
 
 

01:28:40

 
Brennan Hopkins: I I matured a ton. I'm way more emotionally communicative and like understanding because of her. So it's not Yeah. But that was like fascinating thing. And then it just she fell in with honestly like she just started making friends in a circle that was extremely progressive where no one was in any sort of traditional relationship. You know, most of the people would identify as queer or something. And um a lot of them were quite a bit younger, frankly. They were in they were in their early 20s really and we're like 30 now. And this narrative of like throwing off any responsibility or expectation or rules are bad or like you should be free to do to explore whatever you want to do whatever you want. That's like the highest that is the highest calling in life is fullest expression of any of your desires really is the is what they proclaim which I mean hey that's a great message I like it too but it's somebody's got to pay for it
Joshua Hamilton: Yes.
 
 

01:29:55

 
Joshua Hamilton: Just of any
Brennan Hopkins: um
Joshua Hamilton: desire. Beautiful.
Brennan Hopkins: well that
Joshua Hamilton: I love
Brennan Hopkins: yeah
Joshua Hamilton: it.
Brennan Hopkins: really yeah
Joshua Hamilton: Because
Brennan Hopkins: well that's
Joshua Hamilton: no
Brennan Hopkins: the
Joshua Hamilton: maturity
Brennan Hopkins: thing so
Joshua Hamilton: comes, no skill or maturity or wisdom comes from harnessing desires.
Brennan Hopkins: well
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Just let
Brennan Hopkins: well
Joshua Hamilton: them
Brennan Hopkins: that.
Joshua Hamilton: let them loose.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, that's the whole that's another narrative which is like is there beauty in hard things and suffering? So, we we won't tackle that today, but that's the that's what happens when you get rid of there being beauty from hard then you should avoid hard at all costs actually, which is fair enough. Yeah, you should. If you don't think if you think it's only bad, then you should avoid it at all costs.
Joshua Hamilton: That's a good Yeah, valid point. Like, yeah, absolutely.
Brennan Hopkins: And
Joshua Hamilton: There
Brennan Hopkins: so,
 
 

01:30:33

 
Joshua Hamilton: is no beauty in it. Get rid of it.
Brennan Hopkins: get rid of it. Yeah, that I didn't have that wasn't my original idea. I heard that in the podcast, but like I it's just it's accurate and you know, I would say that there was enough I I don't know what happened in those spaces. I think there was a lot of deception on her part for where she wasn't honest with me about some of this stuff. And so it led to I don't know it just the whispers, you know, the people being like, "No, that's not right." you know, and then it led to her kissing a girl when I was on a work trip, you know, and then people being like, "No, you're entitled, you know, she's like, I think I'm by." And that meant that she was entitled to be able to explore that aspect of herself because she had missed out in her early 20s, you know, committing to someone and following strict rules and all this type of stuff. And she was owed that.
 
 

01:31:24

 
Brennan Hopkins: And I basically was I mean I tried to work with her but I was like no this is a pretty hard I was like this is pretty hard boundary for me monogamy you know been doing it for a minute and I'm pretty I'm still here that's still a thing I'm still still believe in it and
Joshua Hamilton: from
Brennan Hopkins: um
Joshua Hamilton: Tuesdays to the Sunday like Monday.
Brennan Hopkins: yeah exactly yeah it was just so and then there was the downward spiral really of basically in like multiple events over the fall the subsequent like nine months or whatever of of big issues that were that appeared to be unrelated but were all related to her wanting autonomy frankly like she just wanted no responsibility and wanted to do whatever she wanted to do. And there was another instance where there was a um yeah, she like she kissed someone else that I had already expressed concern about and she had told me that there was no issue, you know. Then one night like she just didn't come home, which had never happened and I didn't get a message until like 4:00 a.m. telling me where she was at or whatever and stuff.
 
 

01:32:43

 
Brennan Hopkins: And it was just like uh a very rapid descent into this new lifestyle that had been presented to me as like I just need a little bit of space. And I was like okay that's hard for me but as long as you don't cross these lines like I understand. I don't want to be that controlling. I was like I'm not going to have an open marriage. Don't
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: sleep with anyone. I don't want you kissing anyone. I was like I like you're married so but if you want to spend time with these people and go out and do stuff like I understand like that's cool and um yeah it just very quickly became that was the new path actually and that I was the I was the old path being left behind and um I eventually just had to be yeah I I like I had a pretty big breaking point. Well, not really, but I was in therapy one day and my therapist just told me straight up. I've been seeing him for about a year and a half.
 
 

01:33:42

 
Brennan Hopkins: And he goes, "I'm worried about you because this is causing you like a lot of distress and I think you want to save your marriage more than your wife does." And in that moment, I was like, "Yep, this is it. I'm done. like I can't I I I had initially decided I will go as far as I possibly can even if it's super painful until I reach the point to where I think I'm going to do irreparable damage to myself to where I might not recover for a long time from this and I might jeopardize future
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: like friendships and relationships because of how damaged I am from this. I was like I will stop before I get to that point.
Joshua Hamilton: s***, man.
Brennan Hopkins: And so
Joshua Hamilton: That's That's impressive.
Brennan Hopkins: when I when that h when my therapist said that to me, I was like, it's right now. Like this is it. This is the moment. Because I knew I was like, I can't do another one of these spirals that we have where we like kind of pretend everything's okay and then something arbitrary blows up and then it's the end of the world again, you know, and it was Yeah.
 
 

01:34:43

 
Brennan Hopkins: I just So the next morning, literally, I was like, I think we should separate. And she's like, no, no, no. Let's try and save it. It's like, "Okay, we'll give it a go." Looked in therapy and then she essentially vanished for like five days. I mean, was in medium was in a small level of communication, like kept me updated or whatever, but it was like And so by the time she came back home, yeah, the texts were like, "I'm going to stay over at so and so's if that's okay." It's like, "I'm not gonna tell you no." Like, obviously not in a good position. So, um, I just gave her a bit of an ultimatum. I was like, "Do you actually want to save this relationship or not?" Because I will not go to therapy and deal with all of this really hard things. And the best part of the year because it was like Chrissy and Summer here. You know, it's like it's the best time of year.
 
 

01:35:34

 
Brennan Hopkins: I was like, I will not do all of this s*** just to have someone else be like, "It's unfavorable." So, we could absolve ourselves of responsibility. It's like, "Do you want to say this or not?" And or I think I asked her, I think I was like, "Do you want out or not?" I was like, "Do you want to say this or do you want out?" I think is what I said to her. And she's like took a day and then she's like, "No, I want out." And I said, "I know. Thank you kind of. That's actually um
Joshua Hamilton: Wow. s***.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: And so how did you find the recovery process from there?
Brennan Hopkins: Oh, look. There was a level of immediate relief actually because my life had was really hard, frankly. And it was nice to get back some of that like things, you know,
Joshua Hamilton: some Brennan.
Brennan Hopkins: and to have some hope, you know. Yeah. Like kids had been taken off the table, like all these things.
 
 

01:36:48

 
Brennan Hopkins: It just had escalated to crazy levels. And um so I there was a sense of like instant relief. There was a lot of residual pain and grief though because you can cognitively understand something but that doesn't shift your heart or your nervous system like that's on its own timeline frankly.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: And so you just got to kind of buckle up for the ride and kind of have grace for yourself and try and manage within reason based off of whatever capacity you have. But yeah, like I instantly tanked my capacity for just functioning as a human like
Joshua Hamilton: Heat.
Brennan Hopkins: having to go through that. Um and then there was so many added pressures with like money and with visas um stuff as well. I it just was yeah it was it was challenging but I think this is you know what was hardest like two things was the loss of identity. So from being a husband and having something like frankly like purpose I would say and having the opportunity to build something with someone which is what I like really wanted and loved.
 
 

01:38:17

 
Brennan Hopkins: I am a I am like a relationship person. I will happily pick the the challenges that come with a relationship over the challenges that come from singleness. Like I don't I don't I'm like that's never been a question in my mind. So I was I was signing up to be worse off in some in in the things that I cared about most. And that was actually a big realization I only had literally just a couple months ago. That was pretty massive for me. Um because I have, you know, I'm traveling a lot. I'm getting to do all sorts of cool things. I'm free in a sense. That's really good. So that's awesome. But there were aspects of things that I value more that I had in that that I don't have right now. So that's confronting that. You just got to you just got to be it's like a very big like okay do do I say do I actually believe what I say I believe to my own detriment
 
 

01:39:17

 
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: and am I willing to actually do the hard thing that hurts me because I actually believe that it's right or
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: that it's the better way
Joshua Hamilton: Values
Brennan Hopkins: and
Joshua Hamilton: are
Brennan Hopkins: because
Joshua Hamilton: easy until you have to step into them.
Brennan Hopkins: well that's the thing, right? You know, and and and I think the easiest comparison is kind of like when you're trying to get in shape after if you've been out of shape, you know, you like start working out a lot, you adjust your diet, and it's like your life actually gets worse for a while, and you are not sexier. Your
Joshua Hamilton: No,
Brennan Hopkins: life just sucks. You're like, "Damn it, I'm fat and I can't have cookies and I'm at the gym all the time. Like, I hate the gym. This is exhausting."
Joshua Hamilton: this so good. Yep.
Brennan Hopkins: And you
Joshua Hamilton: That's
Brennan Hopkins: just got
Joshua Hamilton: the bottom.
Brennan Hopkins: to sit there.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
 
 

01:40:06

 
Brennan Hopkins: You just got to sit there in that. And it's just like, am I crazy? Am I? Because everything practically that we use to reinforce our decision is actually telling us the opposite in that moment.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah. The total opposite. It's f****** mental.
Brennan Hopkins: It is. It's telling us
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: the opposite. So there's like a resoluteness in in the in the decision that you have to have that's absent of anything else outside of just like
Joshua Hamilton: Results.
Brennan Hopkins: yourself. Yeah. Exactly. And then the second thing is like man I I'm having to navigate s*** that I just did not plan on doing. Like holy crap. I'm like all of my friends are married people with children. Dating is actually a lot harder than I anticipated. Frankly, I'm not because I don't know how to meet women because all of my f it's like, what are you doing on Friday? I'm going over to my friend's house and hanging out with them and their kids.
 
 

01:41:03

 
Brennan Hopkins: Like, that's what I do. That's my life. I love it.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: That's not super conducive, though, for meeting single women, though. And so, I'm like, I don't even know how to do that. I met my girlfriend at 21. Well, we got together at 21. I met her at 20. I was like, I didn't date in any of my 20s, you
Joshua Hamilton: Keep
Brennan Hopkins: know?
Joshua Hamilton: it.
Brennan Hopkins: I was married. So, I was like, I don't even know how to do this. Also, I'm carrying a bunch of things that I definitely didn't sign up for. I'm like, frankly, I technically did the right thing and someone else blew my life up and now I can't even live in my own home,
Joshua Hamilton: f***.
Brennan Hopkins: you know, type of thing. So, you're just like, whoa, that's crazy. Okay, what am I going to do? you know, that tension, but then I'm still responsible for how I show up and for doing something in and regardless of of where I find myself because no one's coming to save me there.
 
 

01:41:59

 
Brennan Hopkins: No one's coming to fix it. Also, guess what? I'm not actually that special. Like, people have been hurt and had their lives ruined by lots of people for all of human history. So, like,
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah, welcome to the party.
Brennan Hopkins: yeah, a little bit, you know, it's like
Joshua Hamilton: It's
Brennan Hopkins: confronting.
Joshua Hamilton: not even that special a club. You're like, f******
Brennan Hopkins: Oh,
Joshua Hamilton: hell.
Brennan Hopkins: no.
Joshua Hamilton: This
Brennan Hopkins: It's not. It's like, damn it.
Joshua Hamilton: not even an elite club here. This is ridiculous.
Brennan Hopkins: I'm not even
Joshua Hamilton: All this pain and I'm not even in a sweet unique individual club where No. No.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. And and that's the so that's also like that's really the challenge though is that you have to learn how to base your okayness outside of any of those external things because then because if you don't you being okay then is conditional on those things being satisfied
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: which is why like my faith personally means so much to me because it's extremely grounding.
 
 

01:42:52

 
Brennan Hopkins: However, but just in general like people always are like but your future and I was like I don't care. I was like, I believe you, but like today sucks and I can't I can't like that's not I can't cuddle the future, you know? I just want to hug and you can't cuddle the future right now. Also, if I make my okayess contingent on one day things being better, that means that I'm actually not enough
Joshua Hamilton: right
Brennan Hopkins: in
Joshua Hamilton: now.
Brennan Hopkins: the right now. And guess what happens when we typically get what we say we want in life? It's not what we thought it was. So,
Joshua Hamilton: Now, funnily enough, out of all the elite clubs that you'd want to be a part of, that one is probably the most elite. Being okay with yourself right now. That has
Brennan Hopkins: sure.
Joshua Hamilton: a cool
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah,
Joshua Hamilton: badge. That's a cool club. That's elite. That's unique. Cuz it's tough,
Brennan Hopkins: it
 
 

01:43:48

 
Joshua Hamilton: man.
Brennan Hopkins: is.
Joshua Hamilton: It's hard. It's hard filling up your own cup
Brennan Hopkins: It's
Joshua Hamilton: and being
Brennan Hopkins: an
Joshua Hamilton: okay
Brennan Hopkins: invisible
Joshua Hamilton: with yourself.
Brennan Hopkins: badge though, so only
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: you know that you get
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: to
Joshua Hamilton: That's
Brennan Hopkins: have
Joshua Hamilton: the
Brennan Hopkins: it,
Joshua Hamilton: pain in
Brennan Hopkins: which
Joshua Hamilton: the ass.
Brennan Hopkins: just
Joshua Hamilton: Come
Brennan Hopkins: sucks.
Joshua Hamilton: on. I don't know. people. People I think you know when they're all okay with themselves,
Brennan Hopkins: That's
Joshua Hamilton: they're
Brennan Hopkins: true.
Joshua Hamilton: really nice
Brennan Hopkins: I
Joshua Hamilton: people to
Brennan Hopkins: agree.
Joshua Hamilton: hang out with.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: You're like, "Wow."
Brennan Hopkins: And and that's the coolest thing. Like your community will rise to the standards that you set for it, frankly.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. 100%.
Brennan Hopkins: And so I'm privileged like you and I, we have we're we have a great relationship and that's because of our general expectation for the types of people that we want to have in our circle
 
 

01:44:24

 
Joshua Hamilton: Okay.
Brennan Hopkins: and that has allowed
Joshua Hamilton: Awesome.
Brennan Hopkins: us to be able to share some like really fun times together and and interactions and stuff and yeah, but that's actually digression. So, where I know we've been going at this for a while, so is there anywhere that you want this to go before
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah,
Brennan Hopkins: you wrap it up or do
Joshua Hamilton: I
Brennan Hopkins: you
Joshua Hamilton: I
Brennan Hopkins: want to wrap it up or where
Joshua Hamilton: kind
Brennan Hopkins: you
Joshua Hamilton: of want
Brennan Hopkins: at
Joshua Hamilton: a
Brennan Hopkins: with
Joshua Hamilton: bow.
Brennan Hopkins: all that?
Joshua Hamilton: I kind of want a bow.
Brennan Hopkins: Okay,
Joshua Hamilton: But you've
Brennan Hopkins: beautiful.
Joshua Hamilton: kind of already the kind of thing that I want to bring it back up for guys is what are the warning signs? this dismissal of me as a person and the unlined expectations of behavior. I think those are two things that you can actually see quite earlier on
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: and the action from that is you don't have to break up your relationship.
 
 

01:45:06

 
Joshua Hamilton: You don't have to shatter it but it's like step up do the hard thing. This is not how I want to be treated. These are my expectations of this relationship.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: And I think from your experience that that does half the bow. Is there anything you would you would tie into that that would really make it complete for the guys
Brennan Hopkins: Well, I I think what is important is for you to have a level of like Yeah. like recognize that you are while you are an individual, you are also trying to be a part of something that is not just you. So there is always a give and take, but you need to have you've got to be really open and upfront and honest about where you're at so conversations can be had. And then you're going to have to like it's really about the ability to come to terms with your circumstances and if it's right or not or if it's worth it or not. You know what what what things you're doing.
 
 

01:46:09

 
Brennan Hopkins: And I don't think what led to the acceleration really of my the dis the breakdown of my marriage was the fact that I started having more boundaries. I ch but I I changed the rules though.
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.
Brennan Hopkins: I changed the rules about what was acceptable
Joshua Hamilton: Well, just change
Brennan Hopkins: and
Joshua Hamilton: the rules about having expectations and having boundaries
Brennan Hopkins: that's
Joshua Hamilton: cuz
Brennan Hopkins: exactly
Joshua Hamilton: there were no
Brennan Hopkins: right. I I changed the rules there which so yeah obviously that was not like received very well. Fair enough. In in a healthy scenario though there should have been a that should have actually been there should have been a desire to come together to figure out a way forward. And I think that for men, you will do yourself a lot of good both from a h humility perspective, but also from like just a healthy relationship perspective if you will just actually have these conversations because you'll get a pretty clear indicator, I think, about ways that you're being unrealistic and if the other person is actually just not just doesn't doesn't prioritize and doesn't actually care about you and your well-being, just wants what they can get from you.
 
 

01:47:22

 
Joshua Hamilton: Yeah, that Brendon that's thank you so much for sharing your story mate and sharing
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah,
Joshua Hamilton: that
Brennan Hopkins: of
Joshua Hamilton: journey
Brennan Hopkins: course.
Joshua Hamilton: because
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: that is it's hard just experiencing the journey. It's hard sharing it, but it's also the level of awareness that you have has been able to really create a a space where men can actually improve. And it's hard. They have to face the mirror for the guys who want to choose it. It ain't
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: going to be easy now that they know it. And for some of
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah.
Joshua Hamilton: the guys, this might be the first time they're realizing it. They're like, "f****** hell, I'm not as awesome as I thought I was. Holy s***, this is scary. This is kind of shattering my world." But I really
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah,
Joshua Hamilton: appreciate you stepping into that space for us and and
Brennan Hopkins: of
Joshua Hamilton: sharing
Brennan Hopkins: course.
Joshua Hamilton: that because it's it's awesome. Thank you.
Brennan Hopkins: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thanks for thanks for listening. Uh yeah, I'm I'm honored for the opportunity to share. So,
Joshua Hamilton: Thanks brother. Really appreciate
Brennan Hopkins: yeah,
Joshua Hamilton: it.
Brennan Hopkins: man.
Joshua Hamilton: but,
Brennan Hopkins: Well.
Joshua Hamilton: That was spectacular night. Thank you very much.