The Uncommon Man Project

EP28: The Lost Art of Initiation - Awakening the Modern Man

• Season 1 • Episode 28

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In this powerful episode of The Uncommon Man Podcast, we dive deep into one of the most overlooked, yet vital elements of modern masculinity: the path of initiation.

Joined by Michael Cooper, Harry Orr, and Nick Vonpitt, we explore how the lack of true rites of passage has left many men operating from boy psychology in adult bodies—and how reclaiming the path of initiation can radically change a man’s life, his relationships, and his leadership.

From stories of heartbreak and ego death, to reflections on fatherhood, responsibility, and elderhood, this conversation doesn’t hold back. We unpack what real initiation looks like (and what it doesn’t), why suffering alone isn't the same as growth, and how a man begins the journey into mature, sovereign masculinity.

If you’ve ever felt the call to something deeper, this is your fire. Sit with us.

3 Takeaways:

  1. Initiation Is Missing—But Needed:
    Without a defined rite of passage, many men create unhealthy versions of initiation through violence, alcohol, or hustle culture. True initiation brings clarity, not chaos.
  2. Elders Guide the Way:
    Every man needs a wise guide—not to give answers, but to hold space through the death of the old self and the emergence of the mature masculine.
  3. Sovereignty Starts with Ownership:
    Becoming a man means taking radical responsibility—for your past, your pain, and your path forward. True power isn’t control—it’s conscious ownership.

Call to Action:

Feeling the call?
 Join us for a real initiation—our Project Bali retreat is designed to walk men through a true rite of passage, grounded in ancient wisdom and modern brotherhood.

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Joshua Hamilton: Welcome to the uncom man podcast guys where we explore the journey of becoming a fully initiated grounded and empowered man in today's world. This is not your average man's podcast. This is for the ones who hear the call to lead to evolve to step out of the boy shell and into uncommon greatness. This episode is about the missing pillar of modern masculinity the path of initiation.  And today with us we've got the big man, Mr. Michael Cooper, Harry and Nick. And this is a topic that is very very close to all our hearts.

Joshua Hamilton: Not because of what we just believe that is missing, but also because this is something that is the foundation or one of the roots to why we do what we want to do, why we do the uncommon man project and what we are trying to bring back in for men for boys.  So, this is something that we're very excited to just bring to you guys today and a good discussion about what's possibly missing, what you can do about it in today's world and how it's changed from the past and how we can use it to shape some of the amazing things that the masculine can truly do. Leading in both their life, but also leading in their relationships, leading in their business. So, you're going to get a huge amount out of this today.

Joshua Hamilton: really looking forward to sharing it with One of the things that I want to start with and dive straight in is there any version that you guys see that is left in the modern world of the initiation process. fragments, even if close to wholeness, just even little bits that you see in the world today compared to…

Joshua Hamilton: what we know about the history of initiation. what do you see now? And Coops, you're at the top of my page, so you're going straight in.

MXA Capital: Yeah, thanks mate.

MXA Capital: Love that. I see plenty of it actually in today's culture. Just doesn't mean it's healthy. So, if you look at it, there's probably three levels, of initiations from boy into man psychology.  And the healthy version of that is a true initiation where it's a death of the young boy, on his mortality, facing off on his fears, overcoming those and being celebrated.  But then for a good and those have been going on for 14,000 plus years that we know of in many of the indigenous cultures maybe beyond nature-based tribes but our modern society western society never really had a level of initiation. And so they're out there plenty at the moment. There's frat houses.

MXA Capital: There's 18 year olds getting drunk and doing beer shots and seeing how many beer shots or how drunk they can get but then there's other ones that are really well organized and that would be the military. That's an initiation but it's not a true initiation with all love and respect because they're taking away freedom of thinking. What they want is really robotic kind of people who I give you in order and you just follow without  Whereas a true initiation through a right of passage from boy to man psychology is actually creating freedom. It's creating which is what every masculine actually seeks at a healthy level.

MXA Capital: And so the military is and any form of the services is actually an initiation and it's better than some of the ones out there because the next level I guess down on that is gangs and bikes and outlawed ma groups fractions of society that have cultlike mentality and there's all initiations to that but each one of those initiations slides down in scale and we have an initiation with our indigenous cultures which is steeped in tradition. It's about facing off on that young boy, but it's also about going on a journey and Bringing your medicine back and whereas and so what in that scenario, we're looking at a win, and It's a win for the boy, it's a win for the tribe, and it's win for the collective because he can now go out and hunt and do all the things.

MXA Capital: But when we look at that patriarchal system and the slide from military down into organized crime kind of groups which are all initiations, they're lose situations. So if you've got to go out there and commit a crime,…

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Heat.

MXA Capital: you've got to go out there and beat a person up. You've got to go out there and get drunk. There's not only it's a three-way lose.  If anyone who wins, it's the organization wins because they get a bloodline, devoted, committed person who's now they've got a hook on and they've got control over. So again we're just falling back into more and more boy psychology of brokenness, separation, excluding themselves from society, making themselves not a part of the norm.  But then also that win lose scenario where not only do the boy does the boy lose and does the boy stay broken, the collective suffers as well. And so there's lots of victims in these. And so unfortunately, yeah, there is plenty of men's initiations out there. But we not need to that's a projection.


00:05:00

MXA Capital: But the opportunity for us is to bring back some of these naturebased initiations, which is a true initiation of the egoic death without more wounding,…

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.

MXA Capital: without more victims, because we've done Plenty of that. And it's time that we rewrite that narrative out of the old and broken patriarchal system into this new way of being where the left wing, which is the feminine, and the right wing, which is the masculine of the same bird, finally start to fly in unison.

MXA Capital: But we need young boys to be initiated into their mature masculine so that we can correct the ways of the old patriarchal system that was actually just adults running around in big adult suits like little boys who are really frightened. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hamilton: the most dangerous weapon on the planet.

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah.

MXA Capital: And we've proven that time and time again.

Joshua Hamilton: I have a bunch of questions on this, but I want to ask Harry because there's no insult to this. Harry's a few years younger than Mike is.

Joshua Hamilton: And I want to understand if you looking back on your life have seen fragments and…

Joshua Hamilton: experience fragments of initiation for yourself and what that looked like whether it was through relationships whether it was through business whether it was through any kind of growth where you've had to have a small egoic death and I want to understand what was around you at the

Harry Orr: I find that quite a hard question. I'm trying…

Harry Orr: trying to think of things that I would or…

Harry Orr: trying…

Harry Orr: I guess if I reframe that as to things that have forced me to grow out of being a boy in terms of mentality and things like that. One of the things that came to mind when you said relationships as weird as this might sound would be being cheated on as strange as that might sound, like that changed the way that I viewed myself and viewed relationships cuz I will probably forever be a recovering nice guy.

Harry Orr: So having gone from someone who was a people pleaser who put my val or allowed other people to kind of determine my value and always sought that validation then having I guess that lack of confidence and then that almost shattered but then being able to rebuild that and have that sense that I put my value in this other person that treated me I know that I'm better than that, And for me, I actually came out of that with the most amount of confidence from one significant event than I have from anything else up until this point,…

Harry Orr: which is still quite strange to kind of conceptualize, but that's kind of what comes to mind when you said that.

Joshua Hamilton: There is initiation process through that.

Joshua Hamilton: There's a death of the old version of one and a stepping up into something else that had to change. Whether it healthy or not, there has been that path. What I'm interested to know is one of the processes of initiation is there's always the guide we will say or the mentor or the wise man or the elder that helps that process as somebody goes not just through the journey but then coming out the other side and how they embody it.

Joshua Hamilton: Who was around for you that was as close as you could find to a healthy masculine,…

Joshua Hamilton: if anybody was around at all, to help you navigate that path and then integrate it?

Harry Orr: I'd say no one really.

Harry Orr: I wouldn't say that I've had a strong masculine presence kind of what you've described in that space my dad has been amazing for everything that he's done in the same breath though there's always been an emotional disconnect between us I put it down to he was raised in a household where he only had two other brothers his father went to for and a lot of that time it was you guys didn't express emotion they very rarely hugged or said I love you or did anything like that and so I can kind of see why he was like that and then he's kind of treated me as such …


00:10:00

Harry Orr: but then we haven't had much of that connection when I've needed that guidance so no one comes to mind as that Heat.

Joshua Hamilton: It's really interesting.

Joshua Hamilton: It's I think because this is my belief but I believe one of the reasons why we have lost initiation is because we no longer have that elder who would actually put these frameworks in place for us to go through it and then hold us and then help us initiate it.

Joshua Hamilton: before we started, Michael spoke about the hero's journey and I want to speak to what I feel is one of the hardest parts of that once I kind of hear from Nick because yeah, it's really interesting how common that story is and we all have initiations throughout our life whether we initiate when we go from school to work or relationship or the next phase of our life, parenthood, whatever it is.  And it's amazing how many times I see a gap there of f***, what do I do with this new kid? where's my initiation and help for this? f***, I don't know what I'm doing. you come into a new job and it's like, man, good luck. You're like, what is going on here? It's like we haven't just lost the initiation from boy to man. It's like, where is the onboarding and initiation for every other aspect of life? Where is my elder? Where is my wise man?

Joshua Hamilton: And I'm really interested to hear from you, Nick, because you live in South Africa or a different place. Often us over here would consider it more grounded and…

Joshua Hamilton: connected to nature. And I'm interested in your experience of how you have either seen initiations disappear, not exist come back into fashion. What's your personal experience?

Nick Vonpitt: Yeah. …

Nick Vonpitt: it's quite interesting. from my side of things, I think I probably went through more initiations just from a life standpoint. with a lot of trials and trepidations and lessons and failures and all the above. but just looking at South Africa as a whole, I mean we've got tens of different cultures and traditions and there's these little microcosms all around South Africa. but the traditions in terms of a boy moving towards manhood is still very prevalent.

Nick Vonpitt: and you do see that in the African traditions itself also in the Bua traditions that's also a very common practice where the father or the grandfather will take the son hunting and that's part of the process and then once they have their first kill they have to eat certain organs and blood smeared on the face and maybe staying out out and about for 24 48  hours. there's obviously different variations of that, but those practices are still very normal. it's like, I'm taking my son out. He's come of age. And it might not be this long drawn out thing, but there are these very clear definitive lines for the most part.

Nick Vonpitt: And I will say it's quite funny because especially people that are more on the English side of things and that's their predominant language. you don't You don't hear of it. It's just going on holidays. It's kids one day inheriting X Y and Zed. It's trust funds. the type of linguistics and conversations that happen. I've never heard from any of my friends even from school other than if they had a strong cultural heritage that they were going through a certain practice or…

Nick Vonpitt: or ritual vision quest whatever the case is. that's still been very foreign as a whole.

Joshua Hamilton: That's interesting.

Joshua Hamilton: I'm glad there's still the embers burning, which it's funny how it's always in the native culture. It's interesting how the other culture comes in and just doesn't have any of that. And I haven't done any history and into it what it was like. I think about the western culture and I think about the birthplace of that being the United Kingdom and Britain and those sorts of things. I'd be interested in the history of that and maybe the wise man in the group has some information on that hopefully can share. But from a personal experience of initiation two ones come to mind for me. One was where I left high school to go to university and they both have a similar pattern.


00:15:00

Joshua Hamilton: They were both things because the other one was where I went to travel overseas. Both of these initiations had the opportunity when no one else knew me. So I could delete the old version of myself, kill the old version, just become a person that this is the unhealthy part of it. I thought, cool, there's the jock. He gets all the women. He acts with arrogance and all these other things. Sweet. I'll just do that because I want women. So I'll just do that thing. So I just embodied that. why is that important? How does that align with my values? How do I have this healthy egoic death to step into this higher version of myself? It was really just a shift sideways into some other form of chasing validation. And then the funny thing was I changed for a while because no one else was around to mentor me or anything like that, the integration so slowly phased out.

Joshua Hamilton: And what I was talking about in terms of the hero's journey of what Mike was talking about as we tame the dragon and then we return back to the village with our new set of skills and our new persona. That to me has always been the hardest part of the journey. always coming back from overseas I can't even remember how old I was and I'm like man these guys don't even know who Been away for four years. they have no idea this new version of Josh. I'm gonna have to sink back down to the old Josh so I can have my validation and that connection again and feel part of this place. And what a way to steal that win for the community. What a way to just downplay the light that I had just about embodied and then bring it back and everybody's like, " yeah, cool. Josh is the same guy." So they all stayed the same. They all played the same.

Joshua Hamilton: It was that winwin that Mike talked about. There was no win. It was just back to the old self. And those are the two major initiations that I've seen play out in my life. And I could see how not having that elder in place to take me through that was so inhibiting. And I've given myself the space thanks to some guidance from MC was go down and sit down do your values.  And one of the values that came up was sovereignty. And every time I say it, it has a mountain of heaviness of it because for me, sovereignty is 100% responsibility. And that is a lot because I rely on the government for things and the bank for these things and all these other things. If I take full responsibility for my earnings, my family, all these things, my health, it's like, wow, that's a lot of weight. And we go back to the unhealthy version.

Joshua Hamilton: It's one of the most dangerous things in the world is a boy in a man's body. But also one of the most dangerous things to the current way society is with the sickness of it is a sovereign man. that is a f** dangerous thing for control, for free thinking, for all those sorts of things. And it was funny MC mentioned the military cuz I didn't think about it till now. There's no rights of passage perfectly placed, of course.  in education, you come out thinking exactly the same as you would in the military, probably just not as distorted in your masculine with as much confidence behind it.

Joshua Hamilton: M what's your experience of I guess the unhealthy versions of initiation before you've gone through your kind of rights of passage that were the more structured healthy version.

MXA Capital: Can you say that again, mate? What was Yeah.

Joshua Hamilton: What were your versions of the unhealthy initiation the distorted one before you kind of walked the path? God.

MXA Capital: This the night life in Sydney, that was working on doors, meeting with the underworld. then there was exposure to bikes and gangs and clubs and all of those things. I went through the police service. So that was a very poor initiation because I actually found it lacking in discipline structure.

Joshua Hamilton: no.

MXA Capital: The fitness was a lot. I actually lost fitness by being there.  and they were moving into that politically correct version of they were moving from police force into police service. So you can just feel how they were shifting into being PC and I was bitterly disappointed I wanted to be taken through my measures. I wanted to be tested and meet off on my limitations and I wasn't and so I had both and then there's the parental initiation that some of us may or may not have gone through. And that initiation could be through a form of discipline or a form of control or a form of manipulation. All of these things are available. They're all covert and we don't see them until we can become the observer. So, I think I walked all of the unhealthy ones and collected all of these shirts.


00:20:00

MXA Capital: but just like you and I would say each of us on the podcast, we lacked the leadership. And the role of the elder is really not to give you advice. It's not to tell you anything. It's to chaperon you through from the dark to the light. Can we create this journey of death while creating safety as well?  And so that elder and so if I could use Josh your example when you went overseas the same level of thinking that got you into the problem isn't going to get you out of it. So whileever you're left to your own devices the initiation is only initiation of your current reality. It's not a shifting of the paradigm.

MXA Capital: And so when you go through a true initiation where you're because I know the healthy initiations that I've done, if I didn't have the elder sitting with me for 10 days or 6 weeks beforehand, they drop seeds in about things that would happen on this initiation. And when they happened, I'm like, you have to sit this out. You have to ride this through because this is what's meant to happen. You're meant to lose your mind at this point. You're meant to lose XY Z at this point.  And if I didn't have that, I would have stopped. I would have gone home. And so the elder through storytelling, it's all through story. They didn't say, "Mike, you need to do this or Mike, this is going to happen or X, Y, and Zed." They would tell stories. So we would sit around a fire and they would share their experiences. And This is masculine leadership. This is what the young boys are missing today.

MXA Capital: Because once they hit 14, 12 even these days, they don't need you to say, "Pick up your clothes, put the washing away," because they're trying to find who they are. They're trying to figure out who they are as a man and create their own reality. So, how they really learn and how we all learn as young adults and beyond is through storytelling. We listen and go, "Me, too." Or, that's how you navigated that problem.  I might not tell you, but I'm currently navigating that thing myself. And I can then make my own decision. And this is what initiations are about. It's of thinking. It's creating this way of how can I create a way How can I create a way for myself? How can I be the provider for not only myself, but for then my family? And that's what these initiations are about is sitting in isolation and actually meeting yourself at the depths of yourself in a way that you've never done before.

MXA Capital: I can categorically say there's not too many people on the planet who've spent 5 days and nights or more in complete isolation and not met a single human. No social media, no phone, no airwaves, no 5G, no nothing other than the animal noises. And that level of isolation and solitude, you have nothing left but to meet yourself because that's the only person around. And when you go through these initiations, it's about the ultimate self-discovery and you realize what's holding you back and you realize…

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

MXA Capital: how you can connect in with nature and everything's always available to you. So, I've done all the healthy ones and I can't say I've done all the healthy ones. There's quite a few I haven't jumped off towers and landed on the ground to see if I survive or not.  I haven't done that one never but of the difference between how I feel the energetic imprint of the unhealthy ones there's always guilt and shame attached to it because I've generally done something wrong to get into this group whereas with and so it's a contracted state it's a guilt and shame I've just added more and more low vibrational frequency into my body I'm now carrying something for the rest of my life knowing that

MXA Capital: I've bashed this person, I've drugged that, I've whatever it was. and whereas with the healthy nature-based indigenous cultures that run traditions that initiations that are steeped in tradition and there's thinking and there's connected to the planet. Every single one of those I've walked away from so vast and expanded and feeling incredible and…

MXA Capital: with such a desire to share this with the world as opposed to, feeling s* about this terrible thing crime potentially that I've committed.

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. I want to know your guys's opinion on even feeling into it now.


00:25:00

Joshua Hamilton: I feel it's a** deep yearning and I believe it exists in everyone, not just every man, but I'm going to talk to the men like this yearning of not just finding out who we are, but finding out what we're capable of.

Joshua Hamilton: And is this initiation process is that the thing that we're missing in order to find that out cuz I'm looking at it. I'm going cool, I hate to claim it. I like sports. Let's say I'm endurance. I'm not going to say I'm a triathlete. that just sounds wrong. But it's like this almost hunger for suffering.  this hunger for f***, I'll just push a bit more and I'll feel a bit better about myself or I'll feel a little bit more power or be a little bit more sovereign. I look at the high rocks game as well. It's all these things where we have this element of if I suffer is that me going through my initiation is that me finding a little bit more power about myself or is that me just trying to fill a cup that I can never fill with that kind of suffering?

Joshua Hamilton: It's actually a well-rounded initiation process where I go through and I drastically change and that piece of me dies and I don't need to go through the suffering anymore. I know I can do it. I know I'm there.

Joshua Hamilton: I am centered in who I am and I'm no longer the man that walks around trying to find validation and permission. I want to know what you guys think about that. Nothing left.

Harry Orr: You could even say that that might be subconsciously…

Harry Orr: where a lot of that grind and hustle culture kind of came from in terms of that pride in how hard you'd worked, how little sleep you'd got, how all that sacrifice and kind of pain you'd gone through  in order to make money, grow a business, provide for your family, kind of like whatever the end kind of piece was. But it was like that badge of honor of how little you'd slept, how many hours you'd worked that week, how much suffering or pain you'd put yourself through for that outcome, right? I think that's more on the mental side of things than necessarily the physical.

Harry Orr: But I've seen some people suggest that that's one of the reasons why, younger guys like to flirt with death almost in terms of some of the dangerous things that they do, like drinking to excess being one of them. It's like how much can your body actually tolerate before you find that limit of not being able to return,…

Joshua Hamilton: Nick

Harry Orr: right? There's the healthier ways to do that and…

Harry Orr: then not sell healthy for both mental and the physical

Nick Vonpitt: I think…

Nick Vonpitt: what you're highlighting there as well is just the need for frameworks because if you don't have this clear initiation just as if one sets goals, you don't have these clear milestones. You don't know when you've crossed from one point to another. You don't know when you've reached a certain point.  And so if you think about if we were sitting and having a conversation with someone who doesn't have any specific goals or doesn't have an idea of where they want to direct their life, they might have ticked off a couple of things on their journey already that they could have maybe placed there and said, " this is a landmark. I've passed this milestone. This is a landmark. I've passed this milestone."

Nick Vonpitt: But they still hold the same awareness and consciousness as if they were to just start their journey even though they were seven steps ahead, but they're still holding the idea and identity as that previous version of themselves. So they're technically not there. They don't even get to see the experience and experience the experience fully because they don't have a frame of reference of themselves. So like you've said Josh that you are in this space of clarity and you can identify and you feel steadfast in yourself.

Nick Vonpitt: You're very clear, you're very framed, you're very direct. You've got all these different parameters that you've been able to cultivate for yourself.  Many people don't have that.

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah, I think the cultivate for yourself was a big step like I have definitely over the last 15 or…

Joshua Hamilton: so years specifically sought out people that MC

Joshua Hamilton: always talks about who triggered them. it was people I was like, " f***. That's a bit edgy. "What's this guy going on about?" And I'm like, " want more. I'm going to lean into that." And I still remember I still call it my Bible. The first book…


00:30:00

MXA Capital: Yep.

Joshua Hamilton: where a mate goes, "Hey, have you heard about Paul check here? Read this book." And it was the worst illustrated book I've ever seen in my life. Looks like a child freaking der. I'm like, "What is going on here?" I read this book, looked him up, and just signed up to his course. bam, like that. I'm in. And that was kind of the kick of the journey. And that was from then on I've searched masculine leaders and I really want to dive into this leadership idea and it's cool that we've kind of got such a range of age groups here because leadership doesn't have an age number to it but I believe there might be one when it comes to an elder and I know a lot of guys listening to this podcast will be at the age of thinking f*** I could be an elder if that's what we're missing because we are.

Joshua Hamilton: It's not necessarily the initiation cuz they're not just going to sprout out by themselves.

MXA Capital: We're show

Joshua Hamilton: Initiation is not popping out of the ground. But an elder to take you through the path, they are there. But I want to understand Mike, I'm really picking on your age here. it's tough. But So through the process there's different ways we lead. when we're in our youth, s maybe we lead in our sport. as we get into maybe our late 30s or 30s, it's maybe we're leading our own children, maybe we're coaching sport teams, maybe we're in a management position in our job, and as we go further and further, we become to this thing hopefully where maybe some of these positions are no longer our validation ticket, but we're actually being called into this elder place. What is that for a man who's had the calling, what did that calling sound like to you?

Joshua Hamilton: And for people who may be going, f***, I'm like that that sounds like me. How do I start? how could I go through my own initiation so I have something to gift on as being an elder?

MXA Capital: Great question, will be the pathway to eldership because you don't just arrive there, a pathway is different for everyone.

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. Wow.

MXA Capital: And I know a guy that I've worked with who's 23 years old and he's made a devotion to this path of eldership at 23 and  He's going out and he's doing initiations and spending time with ders, true elders, like ordained elders like someone, uncle who been in uncle in the indigenous cultures in America, in Australia is like our elder. We're seeing you as our elder. Uncle and he's going all around the world and he's making it a pursuit that every day he is living towards becoming an elder and whenever it arrives.

MXA Capital: But for me it was different because I didn't think I was ready. But that's always the case, right? You get called into the place you're not ready for. And I wasn't really ready to own that. And I'd run quite a few retreats. It was probably about four years ago. And I remember sitting at I think break dinner with you guys in Bali and said how do you want to interact in this space? And I'm I really am feeling the calling to become an emerging elder. I wasn't ready to own Elder yet.

Harry Orr: S***.

MXA Capital: It had a connotation. It had a age attachment and a beautiful gift that was given to me was that phrasing emerging elder.  I'd run three rather large men's retreats and was asked to give a description and I said mate what would you put down how would you describe there's so many things that I do and he just came back and he said he goes whether you want to own this or not but emerging elder every day and I said I'd never call myself that I would never self bequath that but he said but you don't have to because I've bestowed that upon you and that's true eldership

MXA Capital: is when the community sees you and says hey uncle and when someone calls you that you're like and there's a level of responsibility and onus that comes with that so the pathways are calling and…

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah.

MXA Capital: I thought but I haven't done enough time in my mature masculine yet to move into this elder phase and it's like time doesn't exist it's a human construct that was the message that came through and I was moving and evolving at such a fast rate who was I to determine  the reality of what was being called on me. And I was running another retreat down in the mountains of Northern New South Wales and I was about to do a big breath work for about 150 men and they're big events, those things. And the message came through. there was an eagle circling above me on the mountain ridge and then from the mountains which are the true ancestors.

MXA Capital: So in Australian indigenous cultures, the elders go and when they pass into the afterlife, they move and they become the mountains. And it's these peaks of wisdom that they hold. All of the ancestors reside in the mountains. And I was just open the space that was just about to start and I heard this message that came really clearly. Come and sit with us Come and sit by our fire. I had goosebumps. It was the most beautiful message that I could have.


00:35:00

MXA Capital: And I didn't question it at that point because I'd gone through my questioning phase weeks and weeks and weeks on end. So where did that come from? It came from someone, initiating me into the emerging elder. It then came from a nature-based experience. I spent four days on the land buried in the depth of this mountain and I heard the calling from the ancestors. So it will be different for everyone. But just like every hero's journey, That's the very first thing. You hear the calling and then you'll have all your stories come up. no. I couldn't do that. No, no, I'm not ready yet. And all of the things, but it won't go away. It's just this constant whisper that it's just there and it just calls you. And then you start to all right, I hear it at least. I won't take it off board, but I'll hear this. And it just won't stop. And it's a pull.

MXA Capital: Whether it's plant medicine, whether it's this, initiation that we're talking about, whether it's a nature-based initiation, whatever it is, you won't go away.

Harry Orr: Sorry.

MXA Capital: It'll be this itch that is insatiable where you can't scratch it. And eventually, you have to regulate your nervous system to deal with that and all of the judgment and the shame and who am I? But if you knew my past, there's no way you'd call me an emerging elder. you couldn't. But my past is what makes me an emerging elder. it's the thing that I hold so much shame over is the thing that's actually got me to here. And so, yeah, for anyone out there, you'll know that it'll be this beat in your heart that you can't deny. And then when you fall into it and you surrender to that experience and say, "Okay, all that tension disappears, all of the stories disappear."

MXA Capital: And for me it was a really beautiful experience. It was incredibly spiritual obviously down on the land in the mountains in front of 150 men and it was fantastic. But where it comes up in many different ways. I'm like I've got two beautiful children. I feel really complete in that area. They've fully grown adults now doing their life but I still have fathering in me. And so I see the men that I work with or I see young men that don't have fathers.

MXA Capital: I was like, this is my time. I have so much to give in the fathering space that I don't necessarily need to birth a child for that. Where are my children now? Where are they? Who else can I father? And that's me in the elder space.

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. I love that piece,…

MXA Capital: Can I sit around the fire and chaper own men through the dark space, through the void, through the dangerous place where they want to turn back and go back to the ways of old. It's like just be be that lighthouse.

Joshua Hamilton: the voice, the calling. We often share that with our men. It's like there's this thing inside me, but I can't put my finger on what it is, and it just keeps gnoring at me and calling out. I'm greater than this.

Joshua Hamilton: There's more to my life and more to me than what I am doing right now. And this is guys can never put their finger on it, but I'm like, here we go, guys. It's not necessarily the call of the elder, but I want to lean to Nick and Harry, guys who are on the path. You guys have the beautiful responsibility and privilege and right of the mature masculine. it's an incredible journey.  It's a big backpack, but what a** privilege because we get to carry that. it is amazing. What has it felt like? We've all had that voice. I know we've all spoken it and been like, "f***, There's more." And I know that moving through the hour what we do that that voice has not got quieter. It's actually become more embodied.

Joshua Hamilton: And I want to understand got Mike's journey and call to this elder as he goes through that and what's it been like for you Harry as you've stepped into the mature masculine because men look to you otherwise we wouldn't be here. Men look to you for that reason not because you're young or old but because you have the mature masculine and the divine masculine start to shine through.

Joshua Hamilton: was like what's that calling and journey be like for you and that initiation there as we'd say

Harry Orr: when you first start to feel that call up.

Harry Orr: It's almost a little bit maybe daunting I guess you said before that responsibility of I'm responsible for everyone at home for all these kind of people that I support for my life my finances for everything and when like you said there's so much that you either outsource or kind of lean on for some of that stuff starting to then


00:40:00

Harry Orr: take ownership of everything stuff that previously we would have just brushed off as something else is like I found at the start was no that's not my responsibility not my problem right we had a saying in the kitchen not my section not my problem you just pass it on to the next dude but in doing that you're also giving your power away to that and so what  I've personally found at least anyway is within that ownership comes a new level of confidence as well.

Harry Orr: confidence in the control of navigating forward of kind of rectifying situations that are maybe less than ideal or things that haven't gone your way or things that in a less than mature masculine state I would have blamed others for or negated kind of responsibility for but then now that ownership has bred that almost like I'm happy to bear that responsibility. I'm happy to take ownership for that. And there's not so much because before I used to feel with that responsibility, that ownership like you you can't afford to f if you're responsible for everything, you can't f*****. That's not on the menu. you're not allowed to do that. But now part of that maturity is also acknowledging that in life we do f******.

Harry Orr: owning it, learning from it, and then like Mike said, all that stuff that maybe those f***…

Harry Orr: where you previously would have been ashamed or felt guilt around. that's what elevates me up because I've owned it. I've learned from it and I've progressed from it as opposed to trying to push it to the side, pretend it doesn't exist, and then just, bury it away, which was keeping me in that same kind of cycle. So, it's liberating and powerful. to have that ownership and…

Joshua Hamilton: Yeah. What a ride.

Harry Orr: responsibility. For me personally,

Joshua Hamilton: I like What a ride. Nick, what's your experience?

Nick Vonpitt: Whilst Carrie was giving such a clear, concise answer, I was thinking of there was a moment maybe eight years ago and I remember I was standing at the front of the bed and I had just done a meditation and I probably sat there for about an hour and a half and I wanted to kick my shins in cuz I was so frustrated.  And as I stood there, was just I could feel the weight of the world on my shoulders. And I could feel just like there was something trying to shake sense into me. And I could just hear this resounding voice, Just let it go. And I was so angry. And I basically threw probably the biggest temper tantrum of my life. It was like my adolescence was being shaken out of my system in that moment.

Nick Vonpitt: all the fear, everything just came bubbling up at once. And it was so overwhelming that experience that I was brought to my knees and I just sat there and I just like Michael mentioned earlier just that release that just crying and shaking and screaming and you felt you were having a complete nervous system breakdown and it was a psychological break.  It was just everything all at once. And I remember standing up from that and I felt hollow, but I also felt free. And I didn't understand what that meant. I didn't know I couldn't put that into words or into an idea or thought form yet.

Nick Vonpitt: And now looking back at it now, I think we've all maybe had those experiences and I've had numerous experiences like that and I think we ride it better and we're able to move through it with more ease and grace when you're willing to work with it. and it's just been this continuous process of letting go of these older identities and beliefs of self.  And as you've maybe mentioned Harry, how your focus has maybe been on just the mature masculine mind has always had this father centered approach around what I've been experiencing. fathering my kids, fathering myself, fathering the people that I get to interact with. That's always come up and there's been all these themes and reflections within that space.


00:45:00

Nick Vonpitt: Yeah, it was just a very interesting thing that just was brought up as you were speaking, but very much what Harry said in terms of just ownership and clarity and…

Nick Vonpitt: just recognizing that there are going to be failings and it's how you get up and it's how you approach things and it's that change of perspective that really dictates, just how you're going to be moving through life and through your journey at the end of the day.

Joshua Hamilton: Thanks for your share,…

Joshua Hamilton: It's brought a few things up for me to be honest. Just thinking back to our experience our last retreat that we ran in Bali and going through the holographic session with Mike and Mike's reluctance to be step forward into that elder as well and I remember the last piece of the puzzle Mike was sitting on my right shoulder and he's like I'm like there's no way that's for me. There's no way that there's just no way. And I'm like I don't deserve that. I couldn't be that. I can't carry that.

Joshua Hamilton: And I just remember writing down. He's like, "Yeah, there it is." And it was like the divine masculine. And even saying that now, it makes me quiver. And I'm like, "You f**** you don't deserve that. Who are you to be called into the divine masculine?" And I'll continue working on that. But it's such a beautiful privilege there. And what I have noticed about that space and Harry shared it about the responsibility thing.  And it comes back to that sovereign man and working on one of my most powerful words of no and that's it. Because what I noticed is when I would say no, it would be I'd then pick a shield to hide behind. I'd be like, " hide behind Oakley. No, I can't do that because Oakley's got to go to bed." So that time just doesn't work. No. Flu's got something on that time. Im I'm a sovereign man.

Joshua Hamilton: I don't need somebody else's validation. why No, that's enough. And that has been something that I Continue to learn and put down that shoe. M I don't need to hide behind my 9-month-old son with excuses. It's fine to carry the entire responsibility of that. And the weight of it is heavy, but also enlightening and exhilarating at the same time. The power that comes with it that Harold's talking about it. And that was probably one of my most healthy initiations that I've experienced is going through that core wound experience and finding out the attachment to the father and disconnecting that and allowing that part of me to be "Cool, thank you.

MXA Capital: Never seen before.

Joshua Hamilton: You've served me.

Joshua Hamilton: it's time for you to go and me to be born into the divine masculine. I'll say it again just for my own repetition just for my own nervous system to really get that embodiment in there. I think I'd love to kind of wrap this in a bow in a way that would from each piece of you because each person you've got words that I know are going to resonate with different people and are going to help unlock a puzzle piece for them in a way that is just going to drop the penny for them.

Joshua Hamilton: So, Nick, could you share what you think would be most beneficial for a person who is feeling the call or is maybe in the process at the moment and is a bit lost on what's next for them or what to do.

Nick Vonpitt: want to read something because this feels something that I need to read. So, let's go with that. This is all just part of the suspense that we're trying to create here. it's a poem Stand still.  The trees ahead and the bushes beside you are not lost. Wherever you are is called here, and you must treat it as a powerful stranger. Must ask permission to know it and be The forest breathes. Listen. It answers. I have made this place around you. If you leave it, you may come back again, saying here. No two trees are same to Raven.


00:50:00

Nick Vonpitt: No two branches are the same terrain. If what a tree or bush does is lost on you, you are surely lost. Stand still. The forest knows…

Joshua Hamilton: Beautiful. I love that.

Nick Vonpitt: where you are. You must let it find you. It's a poem by David Wagner. Lean in. You're not lost. You're part of something bigger.  And it's in that uncertainty that you need to sit in just as your next breath is uncertain. Lean in.

Harry Orr: Cuz the word that comes to me is guidance and…

Joshua Hamilton: Thanks, Harry, wish you a

Harry Orr: challenge. So, if you're feeling in that space that kind of Nick mentioned around kind of lost, you're kind of getting the message but not quite that you're capable of more but not kind of sure where to start or what more looks like anything as Mike said before the same level of thinking that created the problem won't be the one to kind of solve it or to elevate you out of it,  So find someone, a community, a group that's going to challenge that way of thinking or those actions and behaviors that are kind of keeping you in this space and help you to maybe shine the light on areas where you could level up, where you could have more congruency, where you can start to articulate and bring light to what that potential looks like.

Harry Orr: cuz then when you can identify that gap, it makes it a lot easier to bridge that gap and find that path moving forward at least for just the first step. But kind of doing it on your own is a almost impossible task, Even if you can live a 100 lifetimes, it's tough.

Harry Orr: Find someone or a community that you can lean on. It's why we've got the elder to then guide you through that path. You get there a fuckload faster.

Joshua Hamilton: Thanks, Eric.

Joshua Hamilton: And what's the piece that's coming to you that you'd like to share?

MXA Capital: I speaking to the men…

MXA Capital: because women have to have their own initiations as well and they have done in the past especially in the indigenous cultures but to the men this is the area that we play and specialize in and focus  You've got it stacked against Society, the way it's been engineered and geared, the stories, the narratives, plus the patriarchal system, it's still very much at play. Although it's slipping, but it's at play. But men on top of that, we internalize things. men go to the cave. So they think, I'm going to go to the cave. I'll figure this out and I'll come out shining.

MXA Capital: which for some things can work and isolation and solitude for a man is really important. It's a crucial part of what should be their monthly calendar. However, if you want to go to a new level, you need to have someone open the door for And an initiated man, a mature masculine realized that he doesn't self soo or selfresource through the bottle or through drugs or through women.  He actually goes to sharpen iron against iron. He finds an elder who's well equipped to use that sword, who's well masterful in sharpening it, who's well masterful with the skills of it, and also knows how to not use it. And that elder will be the one who chaperons, who guides him through all of the mistakes and the pitfalls.

MXA Capital: And it's very much in line with what Harry was saying is this. When all the nature-based cultures do initiations, it's not the boy goes out into the wilderness on his own. Sure, there are, vision quests but he's taken out there on horseback by the warriors and the chief and he's dropped off at a certain point.  For the 13-year-old boys, when they're dancing around the fire pit with gloves of fire ants, burning their hands for 24 hours from sunset to sunrise, they're not alone. They're with the warriors who are chanting and singing and encouraging them to keep going. And they don't do the work for them. They do not do the work for them.

MXA Capital: They stand there lovingly waiting them for them to and basically the elder gives them the permission to make the decision to grow to make the decision to change to leave the boy behind and become a man. And so if you're looking at your life at the moment and you're seeing things that just I keep dating the same woman, she keeps doing the same things. Realize there's a common denominator in those relationships and If you keep stuffing up your finances and you keep failing at business and you keep doing these things, realize there's a common denominator in all those.


00:55:00

Joshua Hamilton: All right. Yeah.

MXA Capital: And it's just that opportunity for you. If you question life, surely there's more to life right now. What is this meaning of life? That was my question. I was like, I'm working. I'm got all of the business success and all of the trappings and all of the wonderful things. And I sat on the lounge and said, it's got to be more to life. What is it?  That was the start of a very slippery slope. Someone greased that bad boy up and I just went down the shoot. but it was the best decision I made. And so if you're always putting yourself in conflict or in danger or you're flirting with death, realize that that's the immature man in you or immature boy in you trying to die.

MXA Capital: Your unconscious patterning will take you to sporting games, war games. You'll maybe go play skirmish. You'll do all of these things that face off on death because that's your boy psychology dying to grow and…

Joshua Hamilton: The X

MXA Capital: But it can't do it with that level of thinking that So, it needs help. And so, that's where the elder can teach you stories, can shine the light on. They're the way showers, right? They show the way. They've been there before.  It's the pathway to success without all the mistakes along the way. Doesn't mean it's easy. So men are constantly seeking freedom. Earlier in the conversation, every single one of you actually spoke to the traits of the mature masculine. boys are always seeking death because they need to kill the boy because no elder has come in and grabbed them and done it for them. And it's an extraction process. And so they constantly try and kill themselves.

MXA Capital: Josh with his suffering in training and Harry was talking about the same thing as well with a death and I think Harry said young men flirting with it so to speak and even as a grown man most men find an orgasm as a form of micro death. They get this moment of bliss and freedom and stillness this is what they're ultimately seeking.  And so every single one of you, if you can feel, for people listening, if there's chaos in your life, if there's constant drama, if there's fighting, if there's, look at that because you're the one creating it. And ultimately, what you're doing is creating a mechanism for change, but you just haven't figured out how to do that. Find yourself an elder. Find yourself someone that you can trust and who you look to and go, I don't know what it is about that guy, but this something.

MXA Capital: go and sit with that person round a fire preferably because grandfather fire is the ultimate elder. And so if you can do that, they will fast track this beautiful opportunity for you. And what a wasted opportunity. Imagine being on your deathbed and you're 76 years old. What is the cost of that remorse and that regret for you never making this change and constantly banging your head into the wall? I can tell you the passing over at that point from many death doors that I've spoken to in that two weeks on that deathbed waiting for your last breath.

MXA Capital: It's the most excruciating thing you have to go through because there's nothing you can do about the things you didn't change.

Joshua Hamilton: f***. Yeah,…

Joshua Hamilton: thanks MC. Thank you, gentlemen. What a way to it's a downer and an upper all in one. It's a motivator and something that'll scare the s*** out of us. The right hook, in it.

Joshua Hamilton: and what I want to share with the guys is if this or any one of us is called to you the story or it's just felt aligned we'll put in the show notes the link to our event in Bali. it's the 16th of April when we're recording this. It's on the 2nd of May. We have three spots left at this time. we'll give you the link. You can reach out and grab yourself a spot.  we'd welcome you into the brotherhood with open arms and would love to have you there if this is something that calls you and is aligned with you because it's going to be an incredible experience for those men who get to experience this and we're very very lucky to share it with the men that we do.

MXA Capital: And…

MXA Capital: this is completely different,…

Joshua Hamilton: God.

MXA Capital: isn't it, mate? I've just got goosebumps just the planning that's gone into this,…

Joshua Hamilton: This s**. Yes. Thank you.


01:00:00

MXA Capital: the strategy, the true initiation that this is like and it's nothing we've done before, but we're standing on the shoulders of the great that have gone before us, right? We're using the true initiations of the indigenous cultures across the stalking lineage across our Australian indigenous cultures, our first nations people and many of the other cultures that we've lent into to just cultivate this experience for men of the modern world.

Harry Orr: Thank you.

MXA Capital: Initiating them with old technology into the modern world.