The Uncommon Man Project

EP03: The Uncommon Path to Fatherhood: Raw Insights and Learnings (Part 1)

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Fatherhood, a journey as old as humanity, continues to be a path filled with unique experiences, deep emotions, and transformative insights. In the latest episode of our podcast, we delve into the multifaceted experiences of becoming a father, addressing the anticipation, the challenges, and the profound changes men undergo in this life-altering process.

The journey to fatherhood often starts long before a child arrives. It begins with contemplation and decision-making, weighing the financial, emotional, and lifestyle adjustments required. Many future fathers think deeply about their readiness to embark on this journey, considering the ideal circumstances for welcoming a child into their lives. Yet, as many find, life seldom adheres to our meticulously laid plans. The decision to start a family, sometimes made amidst uncertainties, underlines a universal truth about fatherhood: it's as much about adapting to unexpected changes as it is about planning.

The birth of a child is a pivotal moment, deeply personal and universally shared across cultures and time. Our discussions reveal that the birthing experience can vary widely, from home births and water births to more traditional hospital settings. Each story highlights the importance of creating a safe and supportive environment for the mother, respecting her intuition and needs during labor. The role of a partner in this process is crucial, not limited to physical support but extending to emotional and informational support, advocating for the mother's wishes and ensuring her comfort and safety.

Moreover, the episode touches on the profound emotional rollercoaster that accompanies the arrival of a child. For some, the instant bond with their newborn is as expected, filled with overwhelming love and joy. For others, the connection grows more gradually, challenging preconceived notions of instant parental love. These honest reflections offer comfort and understanding to new parents navigating their feelings and relationships post-birth.

Equally important are the challenges that can arise, such as dealing with miscarriages—a heartbreaking experience that impacts both partners deeply. Our discussion provides insights into navigating grief, offering support, and maintaining the strength of the relationship during these trying times.

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joshua hamilton:Welcome  back Legends to another uncommon man project podcast today is for three kinds of people. One the man who was thinking about having children because it takes a lot of thinking I highly recommend it.

joshua hamilton: The second guy here's on the path. Maybe a child is on the way and the third is to those guys who are all really debts. We're going to be ripping out the things that you need to think about things that you need to be aware of and some to maybe some of the challenges that are going on. I am particularly excited about this podcast because I have two of the guys one recently one who's been through the process quite a long time ago, and it's about to do it again because I'm not quite sure why yet and it's great for me because when I say, I don't agree with this whole we are pregnant thing. my fiance is pregnant. I am literally Observing it and continuing all my life as if nothing else has changed right now. So I'm really interested in getting some advice from these guys and hopefully the questions and answers that come from this will be really helpful for you. So

joshua hamilton: I'm actually going to start with Harry because I know his journey in this is really interesting and I've spoken to him first, but I want to kind of dive back not because I don't know how to make a baby but the idea of what your thoughts processes before. Jackson turned up in yours and lives life. But what were you thinking about?

Harry Orr: so after we got married or even before we got married we were thinking about the timeline of how we wanted to do things. And the thing that we were kind of considering. the ideal situation was we would be in being a house and be in a financial position where she could take as much time off as she wanted at least a 12 months or longer if need be and finances wouldn't be a stress and the beauty of this job is I can float in and out as I kind of please so that wasn't an issue but that was kind of what we ideally wanted to have in place so when we got married

Harry Orr: I just turned 30 live was, a couple years older than me and then we kind of did the math and then realized that It's probably going to be three to five years from now before we can get into a house at this current rate with interest rates all that kind of stuff then firstborn puts us, mid to late 30s, then the second pushing 40 and that extends things are fair bit and then

Harry Orr: For those of you that have done your research or no, the later that you go on to have young kids the harder it can be for some people and the risk of complications and all those kind of things goes up as well. And we wanted to be on the young girl side of parents as well because then at that stage by the time our kids are 20, we're 60 as well. So everything kind of gets delayed that little bit further and then that was where we sat for a while and eventually came to the point where what I'd rather start a family now. We'll figure out the finances figure out everything else later. We can make it work. like we've done I don't have my office anymore. Jax is in there, and we're figuring things out as we go.

joshua hamilton: I was tell you there because this is an interesting part people I'm gonna plan to have a kid. I'm gonna do all these things and it just sounds like 90% of the time people just throw the plan out the window. They're just whatever s**. We'll figure it out. how did you have the confidence to be like, what s*** we're here. let's have a kid of course and started another business at the same time as well. Just can't test the idea. I feel soon to be dead. how did you get the confidence to be We're not in the house. These are the two biggest things. We were thinking about in terms of having a kid and now actually we're having a kid.

Harry Orr: worst case scenario we have the child. Can't afford the mortgage. sell the house move back in with mum and dad five minutes up the road.

Harry Orr: live with them that was probably worst case scenario. Mom and…

00:05:00

joshua hamilton: Did they know that?

Harry Orr: dad are pretty well, Yeah, they might have forced us into the garage or…

joshua hamilton: The mom and dad know that place it.

Harry Orr: the dog kennel or something like that, but they would have looked after Jacks at least so that's fine. But As worst case scenario. It wasn't that bad and a lot of s*** would have to go against us for that to actually happen. So the reality of us getting to that point was pretty slim and I was happy to back outwards that we wouldn't get to that point right even with the increase in interest rates and all that kind of stuff. I was happy that we'd be okay. We'd be able to figure it out between the coaching between everything else that we're doing. We're pretty resourceful. I Back to us to be able to figure it out.

joshua hamilton: Nick you had a bit of a different Journey, bro I believe you've got a bit of a surprise was it not?

Nick Vonpitt: It was a surprise. So I still in uni.

joshua hamilton: hey, I want to know first because you were young you were still in any right we even Did you think you were gonna be a day later on life?

Nick Vonpitt: Yeah.

joshua hamilton: Was that a thought I'll be a dad at some stage of my life.

Nick Vonpitt: to be honest with you I probably didn't have that mapped out there. I was more focused on. Getting a professional accreditation and essentially leaving the country and working abroad having a really good. Korea

Nick Vonpitt: that was the focus. I wouldn't have particularly been happy. If that were the case and that did happen and transpire fortunately it didn't.

Nick Vonpitt: And I couldn't see anything else in between that to be really honest with very vanilla

joshua hamilton: So fast forward How did you find out? what was that day Thank you back with some drama.

Nick Vonpitt: That's horrible. It was absolutely horrible.

joshua hamilton: Just take you back for some trauma.

Nick Vonpitt: I literally felt like my entire life just ended in that instant. Not that I had everything mapped out clearly. I was my own, earned illusion. but it felt like a ton of bricks like hitting me and being Holy s***, dude you.

Nick Vonpitt: Because the first thing that came up into my mind was obviously my experience with having different masculine figures and not really having a father as I was growing up like how the f*** am I supposed to do this if this is the case if I'm supposed to step in there, I didn't even have that. where's the blueprint the people that were there? They were these kids throwing temper tantrums and running businesses and these affluent males spreading their seed everywhere, but it was just these guys just like they weren't paternal. They didn't guide t share they didn't do those things. And now I'm like, in the dark. I'm like, I've got a summer figure this out.

Nick Vonpitt: And then obviously the thoughts that pop up are we keeping the baby? I'm not sure that it is mine. you have all these little questions that really start playing in your mind and you're like, what if this is the case or what if this is the case what if she doesn't want to keep What if we do keep it what are all these alternative realities going to possibly look like and…

joshua hamilton: Here how long you do been with care.

Nick Vonpitt: where do we fit in? And then how do I fit in the middle of all of that?

joshua hamilton: So this stage.

Nick Vonpitt: I think it was. Maybe just over two years. So, I mean it's really fresh. And that's not something that you're actively aiming towards but I suppose when you're an adult and…

joshua hamilton: Technically you are actively aiming for that.

Nick Vonpitt: doing such things that's important part

joshua hamilton: It's just the outcome was slightly different. Yeah.

Nick Vonpitt: You actively different outcomes.

Harry Orr: he

joshua hamilton: Highly active. In fact, you're probably the most active. so I'm gonna Circle back because this is really interesting. I want to go through each stage because I want to understand. Harry you had a plan pregnancy somewhat.

joshua hamilton: What were you expect how did live your wife change in your eyes? As you go through the process of pregnancy. by the way, guys Harry was not pregnant live was just to bring up just for the record.

Harry Orr: Yeah, just for the record.

00:10:00

Nick Vonpitt: Thank goodness.

Harry Orr: How did she change in my eyes?

Harry Orr: it was interesting when she obviously started to show a lot of the signs of actually, the belly growing in just physically changing all that kind of stuff and Actually found her a lot. my attraction increased during that process which was actually really interesting and it's Almost annoying because there's this increase level of attraction from my end. She is feeling like a bloated cow and get the f*** off me. So, there's this Mitch mismatch in experiences of desires I guess right so that was from the physical element and…

joshua hamilton: Yeah.

Harry Orr: then from I guess. a psychological standpoint through this entire process one thing that I've tried to

Harry Orr: Separate in my mind if you call That Remove the label of mum from her and that might seem a little bit confusing for some people but my logic here is from some of the research or the studies or the books that I've read in terms of, longer term relationships parent or marriage. All that kind of stuff is when you start to add these labels to people then it changes the way that you subconsciously feel and kind of act towards them. And so unless you're into incest not many people gonna get off on the thought of your mom, And so just the term mum you think of generally your own mom, but then in doing so if you start to label or this is

Harry Orr: Mum, as to you who was your wife and his woman then that sexual attraction kind of changes because subconsciously that's a weird thing from mum to do you don't see a mum in that kind of light. as strange is that kind of might sound and not to take anything away from her being like an amazing mom and all that kind of stuff, but I wanted to make sure that in my mind she live the amazing woman that I see her as that I've always loved her as then a wife and she's mother to Jackson not to me nothing to do with me in that sense. right

joshua hamilton: And I'm writing that down queue all the mum jokes, but that is That's key. I thank you for that Little Slice there, but Nick it's gonna be different from Dude. You are in your twent early 20s with 20 21

Nick Vonpitt: Yeah, so too.

joshua hamilton: So you don't need to be pumping any test or…

Nick Vonpitt: I think I was doing.

joshua hamilton: anything to have a ridiculously high sex drive at that age list be honest. So how did things change for you?

Nick Vonpitt: But mine was quite interesting. So I lost attraction completely during that time because of what she represented. Because in my mind it was like you are the person that is basically ending my life. I didn't want to take accountability. Yes. that was rough.

joshua hamilton: Wow.

Harry Orr: Wow.

Nick Vonpitt: We disliked each other a great deal. I would even say borderline hate each other because You've got childhood trauma coming up. You've got everything that catalyzed everything that cat like my life right now as it is right now, so that was when there was literally a bomb thrown in and then everything just blew up so

Nick Vonpitt: It wasn't a pretty time so I didn't have a job then at all. I drained the pregnancy period I was also jobless for five six months you're staying at my mum's place. Look the one thing we could agree on was both of us sex drives were fantastic. So we didn't have a problem there. We hated each other, but we made sure that we met each other's needs during Period of time so that's the one that kept our relationship whatever you call situationship going.

joshua hamilton: the situation

Nick Vonpitt: it really wasn't an easy time because It was just like, when you don't want to accept something. And it's unexpected and your ego is in the way and it doesn't tie into your vision. It doesn't have to what was possible you're unwilling to let go of the reality of for what is

Nick Vonpitt: and that I was so stubborn and I honestly was an absolute dick and then on top of it, I still got pregnancy hormones. So I'm very sensitive to when she's pregnant, even now for example Curly randomly made It feels like I'm pregnant so it just having symptoms experiencing daily brain, whatever the case is. So having that on top of that and then because of everything coming up. there was also a couple of Hospital stents. So I was doing a thesis or my second one and everything came up. So it expedited The path of Crohn's that I was on so I had celiacs and it was progressing.

00:15:00

Nick Vonpitt: And that got me into the hospital because I did not deal with stress. My body was overloaded. I was a complete fight these p*** mode and just from childhood to like that that just pushed me over the limits. I was sick. I lost weight. started losing hair No job, and then eventually I've got a job and then I carried on being sick while I was at the job and they were stressed about being at the job, but it was just a mess absolute to miss. Nothing great.

joshua hamilton: What a guy. Right John made a Harry what we were expectations of when this kid was going to come you got nine months get your s*** sort of what's going on.

joshua hamilton: You take a breath.

joshua hamilton: Did you yeah,…

Harry Orr: Nick wasn't

Nick Vonpitt: Is it me?

joshua hamilton: there's the neck I'm yeah,…

Nick Vonpitt: For me?

joshua hamilton: I want to know you've got nine months like what's going on?

Nick Vonpitt: Yeah.

Nick Vonpitt: the nine months it's like everything like I'm reliving. Although all the moments of being like a kid and not having a father to trying to figure that out. And then when you're going to a survival state where you like s***, I don't have income. to support this because it wasn't necessarily just a thing of me stepping in and stepping up I suppose it was an obligation as well. It's like, okay you have to do this. This is what a man does I step straight into that thing like, okay, you've got to be a provider that's gonna be the life that you're going to be living. I don't know what our relationship was gonna look like. I don't know if we were going to be together. We even had discussed parenting. in between that

Nick Vonpitt: It was just like part of this work. Are we going to have a broken home? Are we going to work on ourselves? And We work kind of trying to do that. I didn't really have expectations other than a really difficult life and a big mess. that I was trying to not project onto my child which thought a foreign entity because like you said earlier it's And end Joshua's like you're not the one that's pregnant. You're just there and then it hits you when the baby pops up like holy s***. I'm a dad. No, no, it's real. so yeah, I don't…

joshua hamilton: Low expectations is a good person.

Nick Vonpitt: what it's

joshua hamilton: It's no expectations. It's because Harry you've got a different story. what were your expectations about having a kid? And what were the feelings you having? It would thought you were going to have what was everything that was kind of? What was the path you laid out in front of you?

Harry Orr: we kind of news that we expected it to be hard you sleep to be disturbed. We expected it to be stressful things like that. even leading up to the birth. I started taking my epilepsy medication again, because then that was another risk for us, being stressed being sleep deprived all that kind of stuff and the last thing live needs as well as the growing babies like a fitting husband as well. So they're gonna make her a situation any easier so started taking that stuff again, and we knew that it was gonna be hard. but what I had in my head was, people talk about it's hard but it's worth it. You have this unconditional love for this child. You just see them they come out and just everything melts away in the world stops and nothing else before that ever mattered and all this s*** that people talk about and then He was born.

Harry Orr: And I'm just staring at this will still basically a fetus just I guess it's mine. I saw it come out of my wife. I trust her that she hasn't set with anyone else I guess it's And then there wasn't this instant bond there wasn't this unconditional love or anything like that the kind of the people spoke about and then, after the first few weeks then he starts to go into baby mode or still potato mode at that stage is crying and s** is disturbing your sleep. He's doing all that kind of stuff and there was still none of this unconditional love people po of there wasn't any of that. adornment that people spoke of I've just got this thing that

00:20:00

Harry Orr: ruins my routine that I can't do things when I want to do them anymore. I can't sleep when I like to sleep because it f**** that up and everything gets changed and as salvation, it might sound I'm not getting anything return. That's not like you get a smile and you're like, that was cool or you get to go do something with them. position sounds like our expectation that the stress and everything would be worth it was because of that love was just not met. It was actually the exact opposite. So there was a huge mismatch in the expectation versus reality. And so it was really hard. to not be resentful. of this child of this thing that has just changed my life and now

Harry Orr: We are quiver questioning is there something wrong with us a way s*** people because we don't love this baby instantly because we don't have these feelings that everyone said you're supposed to feel and all that kind of stuff even now we have no desire to have a second child any time soon. one is well enough for what we've got now and we don't resent him or anything now, but I do love him it's getting a lot more.

Harry Orr: exciting watching him develop and things like that, but it definitely wasn't this instant thing that people like spoke of Which was really confusing. going through that experience and…

joshua hamilton: yeah.

Harry Orr: so because I voice that half jokingly to you and James some of the other guys and

Harry Orr: No one else had voiced that before …

joshua hamilton: other

Harry Orr: that's an interesting experience. But I like no one else has ever either experienced or at least owned up to it. but I have enough Consciousness to know that …

joshua hamilton: yeah.

Harry Orr: if I experienced it surely somebody else has felt that way maybe in varying degrees of how long it would last but surely I'm not the only one that has looked at their child and thought then if I'm cut out for this I don't know what that is this I just nothing there.

joshua hamilton: AI how did that change things with you and live?

Harry Orr: It's became a juggling Act of a lot of stuff. because for the first few weeks. before I went back to work was still doing my thing. We're still going to the gym doing our stuff because at home, I'm Just a Spare dick. I can't really do a whole lot. I'm there for her support. But other than that, not much else so up and that I would still kind of carry about my routines to do something and even in that she told me that she had to Current control her resentment of me because she's recovering feeling like a cow. Just having to sing suck the life out of her breastfeeding is not natural or easy for a lot of people so she's in that pain and going through that and I'm just going about my Merry wages coming and going and all that kind of stuff. And then as we've tried to juggle, both of us working both was trying to grow businesses.

Harry Orr: It became really easy just to fall into. roommates and just babysitting, someone would be out and that would be there equivalent of quiet time whether that was the gym or working or whatever and you come back. It's like thank God. You're home. Take the baby. I'm** off. I'm gonna have quite time. I'm going to do something else right and it wasn't easy. to maintain our spark or our relationship because we felt like just tag team babysitters essentially which was really difficult because then again, you feel like You're not progressing. There's not as exciting as people said it would be and you kind of just biting time and then again, you've got people saying don't you just love the newborn phase.

Harry Orr: The f*** do you mean it's a crying potato? What is that a love about it? And you're like, just wait till he walks and then he starts walking because you'll never be in the same places. You left him. I'm like, great. Then he can come on adventures. we can play footy we can go and do s***. He can talk to me. why would you want to delay that I'm* know if I can't wait till he can walk till he can talk to till he can do stuff sure. he's got the energy even like 10 Energizer bunnies. So I might regret that but I would much prefer that then this little man that's trying to control his emotions because he's got so much energy pent up but he doesn't have the motor the coordination to be able to walk or move in the way that he wants so that he's just slower in everything. So he's almost walking so I'm really excited for that phase…

00:25:00

joshua hamilton: if You're BJJ running with we're going straight for it.

Harry Orr: but up until this

joshua hamilton: It's just about walking.

Harry Orr: Dude, He's got leg weights. He's got a little pull-up bar. He's got everything. This is gonna be a Savage before. He's 10 years old

joshua hamilton: I think and this is completely selfish. this is for me about hopefully helps somebody else. I asked by a client the other day like how he said how important do you think it is to have

joshua hamilton: things that you and your partner have together, Common Ground And I'm fearful of the other thing. Fleur chasing her down the mountain. She's probably one of the best female skills. In fact, she's probably one of the best skiers. I know she's just phenomenal, but then that lead to the school. She's just hard working. She's n. She'll go after any sport. I like we bike ride together. we used to it's been about three years since a pile of injuries and miscarriage and all these sorts of things but the other day I'm like

joshua hamilton: f*** When's the next time I'm going on a bike ride with flew?

joshua hamilton: And it gives me goosebumps now because I might holy s** All our Common Ground every single one of the things that we've based our relationship on and all our adventures. You can take a kit while you drop in A** massive line down Cliff take a kid doing 30 can hour on our road bikes. Can't take a kid quite surfing. I'm like all of these things that we've built our relationship on all of these Common Grounds, we all have one thing in common.

joshua hamilton: Maybe the house is the second thing, but we've got a kid. Thanking me wrong. I'm forgetting about all our values and morals and everything like that. We have those in common that fun and going out excited about my models and that is What have you done about common ground? As you said it's like a babysitter swap. I'm gonna go do the gym that we used to do together.

Nick Vonpitt: Sure.

joshua hamilton: What have you done about that?

Harry Orr: Yeah, and that part has been really hard because we used to work out together we used to do a lot about the stuff together which has been hard because of that tag team in Babysitting and we were putting him in the crash for a little bit but that was true lasted maybe who weeks and then we realized that the crashes full of retards and sick kids and they just stick them in front of this big TV, and I really rather not so we pulled him out of that. And now he'll start daycare in a few weeks and we're making a conscious effort that one time each week is when we're going to go to this we'll go do some CrossFit together. We're going to go train and start to bring that back in so that we have that child free time.

Harry Orr: Soon enough. He'll be able to go to the creation there because I want him to be a part of our workouts. I want him to see us doing that kind of stuff so that's normalized for him. But what we've had to swap it to or the time is now involved with him like we've had to just adapt things that we've done. We're very done work out at home just with a step up box and a weight versus stuff like that in the mornings. We'll go for a walk and we'll sit in the sun, the three of us and that's when we'll have, either our brain Jews or our coffee. We'll sit there and just enjoy that time but, the things that we kind of used to do together. working out going out to restaurants going to comedy shows and stuff like that. it's not impossible. But it just takes a lot more organization to kind of make it happen.

Harry Orr: And so if you've got grandparents or someone that can look after him then that's cool. But again, it's harder to make that a weekly occurrence relying on those people.

joshua hamilton: Yeah.

Harry Orr: So we haven't found the perfect short formula by any stretch of the imagination, but It is getting better. we're just finding some of those little pillars within the day that we just have those little check-ins those little times with each other of a hey don't. I know she's quite stressed at the moment with her business and work and all that kind of stuff. So I'm trying to find ways that I can share some of that load so that she doesn't bring that home to Jax and to the family and stuff like that. So

00:30:00

joshua hamilton: What about you You weren't so planned. made the choice having this kid. You had a great six life. But that I'm gonna drop that question as well because if you're Common Grounds great sex, I don't know from both of you. I happens to that. I don't know. I got a pretty good healthy appetite. I'm sadly honest with you and I'm like was that Common Ground going as well? And for how long and what happens? Fill me in the expert here you're gone for three.

Nick Vonpitt: So I think I'm gonna have to answer this question a little bit from where I was to where I am, especially just adding on the commentary that Harry has there.

joshua hamilton: Yeah since

Nick Vonpitt: fortunately she has a high sex drive same for myself. I wouldn't say there was a loss of Attraction, but there was definitely a loss of love. in that space so a relationship took on a completely different dynamic. but coming back to principles and values and more importantly being the best parents that we could be as much as we were in these spaces. It got us to question and really start looking at what we considered normal. So at that moment. the agreement was I want you. To be at home, and she wanted to be at home and look after our child. So that meant that she would obviously be sacrificing income to a degree whole period of time.

Nick Vonpitt: Because of just all the stats that were behind, taking your kid to daycare too early. Allowing them to be out of the nest like what it does their nervous system what it does to just your relationship. You don't necessarily have as much of the environment and just the entire if you're looking at building a human after they've been born just subconsciously unconsciously we wanted to be more in control of that. Unfortunately, there were still a lot of triggers and things that we were dealing with. During that time, so it wasn't ideal but I made the conscious effort and it's interesting that you had the experience of you're not sure how to That was the only thing in my life that I could connect to was my son. That was complete opposite

Nick Vonpitt: That is the only space in my life where I could feel. I didn't have any disconnection. So I stonewalled everyone else and everything else, but that there was my lifeline. and just the fact that he was there and I had to look at this human being and say

Nick Vonpitt: I've got to make a commitment to not just myself but to you that I'm going to be the best version of myself. I don't know what's gonna happen between me and Mom. But I promise I'm not gonna f*** you up the same degree in which I was** up. that, that was my commitment there and I'm gonna give you a better life and I'm gonna question and turn everything over as I can and it was the switch that went off. That was Truck made I don't know but I'm gonna stop clawing at walls and at principles and an ideas and at everything and that's really where my inward Journey as a human really started really questioning everything. So He essentially catalyzed that.

Nick Vonpitt: which was really interesting I wouldn't be where I am or be the person that I am without that and does he have some of my worst traits or he does right now. he does and I have to look at that and be cool. That's part of the cleanup that I've got to do because of the man that I was then I'd even say boy. I wasn't a man. I don't understand this s***. fast forward Where we are now?

Nick Vonpitt: It's when you're looking for connection because we can agree that there was no connection back then but now it's a thing of my role. is to nurture to support as much as I physically can around the space to make her life as easy as possible. The agree Does she do some business stuff from occasion? Yes for nearly the last year. She hasn't worked. Because I said again kids take precedence. I don't want to be the 20 years down the line and I've got kids that feel like we were just shipped out at an early stage. We feel disconnected. You You weren't present you you just dismissed us. business was great. But I'm not going to die with the business as my last thought. I'm gonna be like wow, how was I as a father?

00:35:00

Nick Vonpitt: my role has changed in terms of yes. I am provider and yes, I recognize maybe I am wearing a lot of hats. That a lot of men wouldn't maybe juggle it as well as I'm doing right now. So helping out with cleaning supporting kids like this morning doing the tapping with my kids to help them reprogram and build them up to making my partner a cup of tea you talked about looking for those things that you connected to. Garrison I have died individually so many times. as people that I can look at her right now. And I'm okay with waking up and her being completely different to how she was yesterday to who she is today. And she's the same with that for me because we know each other. We know that we see things differently.

Nick Vonpitt: But we know that our choices our values and what ever else the bigger picture like that's aligned and the way that we feel about each other even though that's an active engagement. It's like this morning. I wrote to a note made a cup of tea. She didn't ask me for that. And I'm not saying that for a thing look at me. It's a thing of I took the time to say look. What can I do to be a better partner also represent a good man and a good father? It takes me two minutes to do that. It was thought that this connection there have I seen her there is the morning. No, I haven't. I've been in the office. I've been here. But she knows you thought of me you connect you you sorted out the kids. You allowed me to sleep longer because later I'm gonna make maybe a big breakfast or smoothie or do something that I know that you need and so we start

Nick Vonpitt: Balancing the workload and it's not that we have to necessarily communicate all the time. And it's not I expect you to do that. I want to do that because I'm making a commitment with you to build a life and right now. At one point in time going back. Noah will my eldest he was in between us so he was like the center so if I were to build a diagram you'd have two circles and you'd have the circle in the middle and everything's That was what our relationship looked like. And before that we were enmeshed, so we kind of balanced each other out that there was a point in time where when we did enough work that we had to realize we have two individuals. Making a choice to be with one another to build a life together. and do things with one another.

Nick Vonpitt: And maybe it's taken on a different role versus drinking and going to the gym and going to parties and doing things like that. But what I do actively engage in is hey let's have a chat in the morning I'll open up half an hour and we just have a cup of coffee and we checked maybe you talk about a couple of things that's got nothing to do with what we have to do as parents what we have to do maybe in the business or things we have to pay. It's just how are you doing? how are you feeling? What are you working on what's coming up for you? just sharing that vulnerability and that intimacy. And what's helped with that is? doing a spontaneous coffee date or trying out a different restaurant once in a while.

Nick Vonpitt: Fortunately the way we've designed our lives in unfortunately. I don't have grandparents here. I don't have a support system. full-time running a business. parenting right now. We'll clean the house. We don't have any help there and we dealt with a couple of massive Health scares in between and miscarriages which we have to work through physically so that this could be a viable pregnancy. so in between that you have all these things, but it doesn't help when You look at it and say this is really heavy. it helps when you look at everything and you say I trust and I know that I've got capacity for all of these things.

joshua hamilton: right

Nick Vonpitt: And it's on my lap because I can manage Being grateful for it.

00:40:00

joshua hamilton: I've been really helpful because you made me want to be a better husband right just pulled up some simple little things, but the other thing is you've brought up and I know there'll be men out there. going through it, but the miscarriage aspect like we had a miscarriage and it wasn't interesting time, but for me as a male. nothing had changed because as Harry said earlier kids in my life is this thing now but up until that point. It's f*** nothing's changed. My body's not changing it. I've got no hormones. Nothing's going on. How did you help Paris and did you feel first? when the miscarriage happened?

Nick Vonpitt: what we have two In three months.

joshua hamilton: Yeah.

Nick Vonpitt: Yeah, so I think it was 12 weeks and another was 11 weeks something that and what the miscarriage highlighted initially was like

Nick Vonpitt: It rocked everything even though it might not have a hit me directly. Because you don't see it as a viable thing, but seeing my partner in that space. And what it brought up for her that we had to both look at together. that rocked me because that rocked the foundation of our relationship. is the space that she went in she went like…

joshua hamilton: and what way?

Nick Vonpitt: if I to maybe try and express it She went into this cave within herself. To make sense of it because I think as a woman.

Nick Vonpitt: From what I witnessed the question like why would this be the case that this hasn't happened before? Is this something that I did wrong was it that we weren't ready is this just Divine climbing is you possibly try to blame yourself but in her case it genuinely was her body couldn't handle it because she was anemic. So just to give you an idea An average person's iron is between what is it? 50 and 70 minimum. It was two she wasn't organ failure. And so we came off.

joshua hamilton: actually managed to develop a kid 12 weeks. It's just inside. Women are insane.

Nick VonpittI didn't necessarily feel the loss of the kid yet the second one. However I invested in that one. I was like, I'm actually really excited I'm I know financially ready. We going for this and that I had a picture in my head And that f***** me up. I don't have any other words, I bet on it. I had the horse.

joshua hamilton: Yeah.

Nick Vonpitt: I bet it on it. I was there I was all in. And it was that crumbling of that Vision with assumption and expectation. And you just sitting there and you're like wow, I literally went two days before and I went and I bought.

Nick Vonpitt: Some clothes and things in the Easter day and you just f*** is this ever gonna happen and…

joshua hamilton: 

Nick Vonpitt: then you've got a partner that's both of them happened at home. One of them happened and it was everywhere so it wasn't like, go to the hospital. No, I saw it. I was there. It wasn't she did it on her own. I just had a miscarriage and I was there I watched it. I saw the whole thing. I saw her hold a fetus in her hand. or a little being so it wasn't just a thing of The women's dealing with it not but I was there. And you sit there you f***. I wouldn't have necessarily understood the implication of that was what that experience was unless I stood there and I was In that space with that person.

00:45:00

Nick Vonpitt: And f*** I can't imagine having to be the person holding that just being on the outside. there holding space to the person f***

joshua hamilton: Yeah, so that's what I want to kind of share because they'll be guys this thing. That'll be like f*** do I do okay. it's one of the times in our lives that There is no problem to solve you are f***** as a man you do the attitude and your masculine of I can fix this. You can't and…

Nick Vonpitt: ing condom

joshua hamilton: the impact that has on the guy and I watch so many relationships break because of a miscarriage when I'm like no. No this should Bond not break. This should be the thing that brings you guys closer…

Nick Vonpitt: Yeah.

joshua hamilton: because often the man doesn't have the strength or capacity to understand that there is nothing you can do like you cannot fix this you are not going to put a fence back to get here. but you can provide. that space what would you recommend or what suggestions? Can you give to guys experiencing this?

Nick Vonpitt: Okay, firstly you have no f* idea. What that person's going through number one? So you're shooting in the dark? It's any assumption that you make any strategy any fixer upper not going to work. It's also not going to be received.

Nick Vonpitt: number two There is just from a logical standpoint. There's a huge flux. There's a huge dip in mental emotional physical It is so ratic. Okay, plus it's basically like your hemaging at the same time. There's a lot. Number three, it's technically a loss of life. There's grief. You having any expectation on it's been two weeks. Why aren't you cooking or why aren't you helping around the house or why you just blind there eating ice cream or Why don't you want to have sex?

joshua hamilton: Or why we're not being intimate again.

Nick Vonpitt: yeah, all that like

Nick Vonpitt: scratch that if you are there for the right reasons. You are going to be present and be like I'm here with you. I might not be able to vocalize but Don't just ask what to do because that's another task for her. Just show up cook the meal. Read the house. Write the note. Give her a massage. If you can like the things that you're showing affection and compassion if she is just crying and she looked just go sit there don't just sit and vegetate and watch TV or so scrolling on the phone. Be present. And she might not be able to vocalize what she needs. If you know her well enough you'll be able to meet at least some of those needs or she can at least see you're there. You're actually there.

Nick Vonpitt: If you can and she's open and receptive look for supplementation and things just to help us system rebalance as well. That's a practical step iron, like organic liver tablets. Those type of things that's gonna help a lot with the blood loss and just getting the body to bounce back but there's gonna be emotional baggage even when the body bounces back and even when she says she's okay. She's gonna have moments where she's not going to be And it will be unexplained. Grief is something that you just need to sit in and…

joshua hamilton: Yeah.

Nick Vonpitt: it will be processed in your system. Innately. You cannot rush it. There's no specific path. There might be a need for conversations. it's been three months now get done right you're done.

joshua hamilton: Yeah.

Nick Vonpitt: It doesn't work like that.

Nick Vonpitt: catch yourself when you're wanting to assume any one of those things. Because it's gonna make it feel really** for you. Being in that relationship because you're gonna feel like all my needs aren't met. But again make you chose this person. Even if you're not married for Better or For Worse, and if you were in the this person would be there caring for you and not showing any resentment or having expectation on you. The person would be there. So the opposite should also be true.

joshua hamilton: Yeah, I don't know why it is so hard for us guys. Sometimes one of the things that was really interesting when we went through. This process was people would come over and I would assume how you were feeling. And that assumption actually made me feel really guilty because they would come over and they'd be You must be feeling awful and that XYZ and I was like Should I be feeling that way because I'll be honest I don't feel anything. that when we lost our first one I was like and then everybody's like you should be are you feeling this one? I just like man now I feel guilty because I'm not feeling that way if I was feeling that way would that help Fleur more and all these things and I learned very quickly. This is great. That's How are you feeling? It was that simple and it wasn't like our flu you must be feeling exhausted our flu you must be feeling so it was like how are you feeling in this moment? Cool?

00:50:00

Nick Vonpitt: Yeah.

joshua hamilton: Anything I can do to help sometimes. It depends on what she answered. I'm feeling super sad. Cool. I knew what that meant. Slip beside it. was easy I'm feeling hungry. that was easy, too. But it's like there's some of these motions where you don't know what to do. And sometimes it's just accepting that that's how they feel. There's nothing you can do. I thought that was really interesting that going through that process that people were all just like here's how you feel. I'm like, I don't know. I don't feel like that.

Harry Orr: but

joshua hamilton: And I felt terrible for not feeling like that. I'm not far out as flu feel that way as well. And then the woman goes through the whole process, is it my fault and my broken am I terrible person? man, and the list just goes on for them and I'm like in my brains going. can you even think that What are you an? Idiot? how is this wolf in but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are thinking the legitimacy of their thoughts.

joshua hamilton: Doesn't take away. So that was one thing I was blown away with going through that Journey. was bizarre because I think kind of got

joshua hamilton: I think one of the scariest things that we're always told is what's birth like and the common quote is it's like watching your favorite Pub burn down. And I'm So there's what I have noticed about pregnancy is there's all these preconceived things. It's going to be extremely painful. it's going to be torturous lose there's gonna be no six for you. This is all these things and us three are very similar in our terms of you create the life you want and people will be you Joshua like it s gonna be. It's gonna be your favorite Pub burning down and all this stuff Yet when I meet some people and they're like, it's phenomenal birth super easy yet. Everything was great like that and they created that way they literally practice the process. Harry from your perspective, mate

joshua hamilton: What was it They give me the mask on give me the f***. What was the day? how did the birthing work share only obviously what you are happy sharing with and what Liv would be happy you sharing but just to give me some I understanding of Am I putting gloves on here in my own ready for the fight or am I coming in and breathing relaxing and we're gonna do this.

Harry Orr: Also, we prepared and went through a few hypnobirthing classes. So practiced, it breath work and coming kind of rehearse the day a little bit. So we had a rough idea of of how we wanted it to go and one in hindsight the mistake that we made all the advice from the door that we had was, go to hospital as late as possible, spend as much time as home as you can do that and that kind of makes sense I guess but the detail that you miss there is you also have to get to hospital when she's having contractions, fuckload of pain. That's when Mobility is not easy and transportation is not easy. And so, we got to the hospital after a few hours of contractions. She's going deep into labor and then

Harry Orr: Luckily for us they'd had about five other women the same morning come in ready to give birth as well. So they were kind of short staffed and live was in this assessment room and…

joshua hamilton: Perfect.

Harry Orr: they're is this your first hell like what happened or that kind of stuff Apparently or the assumption that we made is that a lot of people come in prematurely and they send them home and they do this kind of stuff and he came in lives in a lot of pain and then they finally assessed her and they're like, Yep, you can come in you can have a bed now and it took them a long time to kind of get into gear and we were lucky we plan for a water birth. So, live finally got into the water and my job was very much just to support and look after her but The Midwives the nurses all that kind of stuff for monitoring everything else. My job was just to cool give her the gases necessary, she went other than the gas was completely natural to her credit, just give us some water all that kind of stuff and

00:55:00

Harry Orr: it was interesting just it's hard. and I'm almost at a tier quite a few times live in that much pain and there is nothing I can do about it. Seeing her to this point where she is screaming and literally being torn and there is nothing I can do about it. And it's not a bad kind of pain. But what it made me think of in hindsight was I can't imagine what it would be like to have someone Die In Your Arms. for someone that you love to be in a car accident to being an accident of some sort and they're going through that amount of pain and they're on the way out. the one savior in that space is I know she's not gonna die.

Harry Orr: She'd be pretty* unlucky in this day and age to die from giving birth, but then the water birth went relatively as planned and then after that there wasn't. Too much to it. I didn't have to kind of catch him as he kind of came out or anything like that.

Harry Orr: It was just much a bystander. for most of it I think depending on the way that you want to do you can be involved as involved as you kind of like, but you've the approach that you've taken to I guess the start of Parenthood which I really admire and I've shifted my way of thinking a little bit even with where we're at now is first and being the husband. First and foremost supporting her and looking after her and that was the Viewpoint that we took. Even up until now my job is to look after her and make sure she doesn't Her job is to look after him make sure he doesn't die. And so, with that trickle effect and so even from the birth it was very much that approach making sure that she's okay and like you said Nick you don't f****** ask.

Harry Orr: Ask a woman in labor. Hey, do you want to do this with Get a smack in the head pretty damn quick. you hold the juice box up. You hold the gas up, you hold the things up and they'll take it if they want but don't say a** thing. So because the more they have to ask and do all these things the better know what they want and the Morris is gonna frustrate them because then they have to think and come into their logical brain and you come into your logical brain. You're like that's painful that** hurts, especially if you go through a hit note, but they've kind of trained you to go more into that trance kind of state and zone out but go out of that level of Consciousness by you. Just asking him. How you feeling. Are you? Okay. Do you want this bringing them back into that? Becomes a lot more painful and they're not going to like you for that.

joshua hamilton: that's good to know and neck like You might…

Nick Vonpitt: 

joshua hamilton: because what have you chosen to do it?

Nick Vonpitt: So we basically doing three different births. So the first one was a water birth. Labor's lit not it was a woman's like practice.

joshua hamilton: Yeah and a hospital.

Nick Vonpitt: We had a pool water birth easy peasy. Midwife went a little bit the Eastern route with the thing.

Nick Vonpitt: She started labor at 6am and I think it was about 8:15. I had a kid pop up, but that understood was Very easy. He was on my chest. I was there I supported as much as I could. You don't do anything. you're You're there in the space. Second one, however, and I think just a little bit of commentary on the environment. So first birth what we didn't get right is it was very intrusive. So had her parents. We had close family friends people all come to the place. So it wasn't like this Sacred Space. And that put a lot of pressure on and I mean you're just so focused on your partner. I didn't even see the fact that there were so many people like there.

Nick Vonpitt: And that was first mistake. So I'd create a safe environment where your partner feels safe if you are aware enough, which you should be now. Second birth. We had one in the hospital. Where we did I did get that part right? So I just told everyone to f off. And she was already under so much pressure and she allowed the doctors to dictate what she wanted to naturally do. And she needed to be on morphine and the baby was even resistant. So fun fact when birth is happening, it's not just Mom pushing a baby out. There's an actual. Dance is communication between the baby and the mother and it comes through is how the body wants to move. The body doesn't want to attain hurt itself nor does it want to hurt the baby? And there needs to be constant communication.

01:00:00

Nick Vonpitt: So if let's say there's a doctor that's maybe enforcing anything on or someone trying to say you have to do it this way. You need to sometimes step in there and say listen allow her to move and what feels intuitively correct because that space you're talking about Harry that space. Is a primordial space a woman there's a switch and they're going to the feral mode where they hyper protective and their bodies just move as they need to and that's none of your business mate in that moment or they to facilitate and protect the space. She might not even want you there. So depending on what your situation is, so that's what I would look at doing there. And then that was a very long labor intensive process, which shouldn't have been because it was a very sterile environment and she didn't like that. No one felt her body didn't feel safe enough to do that.

Nick Vonpitt: third time around so I'm going to be Midwife. So we home birthday. Okay, she is fortunately like a viable person to do that. She's never had any complications and what we have done is ensure that I'm well Rich. He's well read we do have assistance on hand, but she wants to be in control of her environment. And again, it's my role to make sure that she feels safe and she said look I might even ask you to be out of the laboring process. I will call you when I need you in that space. And that's okay. Because it is none of your business. It's such an intimate thing between your partner and your child or children or ever many might be popping out in that moment in time. And I think giving her the space to advocate for what she actually wants is super powerful.

Nick Vonpitt: And not having someone come in and dismiss her intuitive knowing of what actually feels right with her body in those moments. if there's anything that you can do is do that. You support her with that?

joshua hamilton: That's yeah.

Harry Orr: With that exactly is what almost created a lot of complications for us because they were short staffed. We didn't have someone on hand the entire time checking as to how far dilated she was and things like that and it was getting really strong contractions in this real urge to push and…

Nick Vonpitt: exactly

Harry Orr: they're saying no Not yet not. And she is on held on for 30 45 minutes and…

joshua hamilton: 

Harry Orr: then they finally checked and they're f****** push and by the time she was able to push she was getting so exhausted and a couple of nurses were coming at that point and we could tell that they were getting antsy at getting ready to suggest, some intervention to come and alleviate the pressure because Liv was getting so exhausted and luckily she was able to push him out without any of those interventions, but she was resisting her natural urge for so long. He would have been born an hour earlier if she'd gone with…

Nick Vonpitt: listen so this conversation will end up being a entire jab and…

Harry Orr: what her body was telling her.

Nick Vonpitt: stab at the westernized system of birthing,…

Harry Orr: Welcome, okay.

Nick Vonpitt: which is But seriously, if you think about it, logically, all right, that is like you have some stranger in your most intimate space taking their fingers and checking. What is that going to do? If I'm gonna be very graphic if you're trying to take a shift and someone came in and try to put their finger in your butt or you're gonna carry on taking a s***. No, you're not. You're gonna stop. What do you think happens like to the body?

Harry Orr: Yeah.

Nick Vonpitt: That's not a safe thing in way in nature. Do you have monkeys doing that? I mean you just so far darling? No.

Nick Vonpitt: You can see it in the person's eyes and in their mannerisms the entire energy shifts in the space when a person is going into that space and then transitioning. it is nature taking over her system in that moment. And it's moving this baby through your job is to protect and nurture that nature and tell all these other people that think they know what they're doing. That is one of the areas where westernized doctors do not have any skill set understanding or notion of what the hell's happening they panic because all they've done is reading a textbook and you cut if it's been over a certain amount of time or it's the money component.

01:05:00

joshua hamilton: Okay.

Nick Vonpitt: You need to protect that's basically like no dude, if she needs to turn there's nothing wrong with that if she needs to do this, there's nothing wrong with that if she needs to be on a haunches nothing wrong with that it's most unnatural position to give birth on your back.

joshua hamilton: never understood I always ask…

Harry Orr: Yeah. Yeah,…

Nick Vonpitt: It doesn't make sense.

joshua hamilton: what would nature do. Yeah. but

Harry Orr: what and they had the audacity to say. we're gonna need to get you out of the bar so we can measure you to see how far dilated you are when she's in that much pain in that position.

Nick Vonpitt: No, no.

Harry Orr: And that was one thing that we learned a lot about, even through doing the hypnobirthing stuff. So for a lot of people if you're going through that I would highly recommend At least educating yourself in that space whether you go through with that approach or not totally up to you, but the amount of stuff that we learned that empowered us with that decision making and having that plan going into the birthing was super helpful because like you said they want to intervene for so that they can control everything that makes it easy for them so that they can finish their shift on times. They can do all these kind of things but being able to ask the right questions know the potential complications or the potential risks that come with some of those interventions and all those kind of things when most of the time

Harry Orr: what is the risk of the baby of the mother's health at this stage? Nature knows what it's doing. What?

joshua hamilton: So this is one of the discussions as when I was talking about Midwife. We obviously found someone that we really align with and I was like, this is the one thing I worry about. She's don't worry I deal with that s*** all the time because I don't know where the line is right f*** maybe something is going wrong and I've got a guy on a white coat here. He looks pretty f****** serious and he's telling me that I'm like, maybe s He's done the small times than me. and I was like, this is the embodiment of the king love a magician Warrior like something pretty** magic Happening Here worry, you've got to protect that space pretty damn bad same with the king. The love is going to be there for the support, but I'm like I know in myself that there is a weakness.

joshua hamilton: Or authority it's been brewed into me. so I know a guy walking the white coat pin and pocket going. Alright guys straight to surgery. We got a roll. That's like what f*** maybe he's right, so I made sure that that weakness of mine was covered. I'm like Midwife had the chat. I'm like, this is where I'm going to struggle.

joshua hamilton: Okay, there are complications now we do need to do intervene. And that's one of the things I've been most happy with. I'm** excited about it.

Harry Orr: Yeah. 100% we're On the exact same man,…

joshua hamilton: Captain to you guys know

Harry Orr: if the doctors I've changed now, but in the moment, it can be very hard. you've got this doctor this dude that's studied all these years telling you. Hey, we need to do this and at the moment we got act fast. I don't f***** know. This is my first time being here. I don't know what we're doing. I don't know all that kind of stuff but for us we had the Doula our plan and she was communicating with the midwives the nurses like all that kind of stuff. Because she knew the way that we wanted things to run so I didn't have to worry about talking to them. I didn't have to worry about any of that stuff. I could just look after live and it was only which it didn't get to this point. But if it got to a point where s*** stuff is serious right now. we need you to make a decision then I would be consulted but luckily it never got to that because she was looking after everything and I could just be there for everything that live needed.

joshua hamilton: but for those guys thank you so much for listening. We're going to do a part two of this for the inside of things the communication the building a family. How do you communicate with the kids? Not this new age Millennial stuff where just let them do as they please continuously for the rest of their life. We're gonna actually give some skills and tools that you can use to help build a healthy happy family both with the relationship and your kids now if this has been helpful for you and you feel there's someone else out there that has be helpful for please share it please write a review, we do this to obviously help ourselves. This has been a really really positive experience for me going into this mode of Parenthood, but also to help out thousands of other men who listen to this and then why do we This we feel the better and more impact we can make so thank you very much. Harry and Nick for

01:10:00

joshua hamilton: sharing what is often? Not a journey shared at all. It's been phenomenal for me. I'll be absolutely honest been really helpful. Thank you.